lct Posted January 25, 2010 Share #21 Posted January 25, 2010 Advertisement (gone after registration) pgk, are you a relative to plk? Just kidding, the latter (aka Phil Kneen, Phil the Great, Phil the brave, pkn and so on) was the king of the trolls on Leica forums. Just a sample to smile a bit and a salute to rené who left us a couple of years ago: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/discus_e/messages/2/45579.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 25, 2010 Posted January 25, 2010 Hi lct, Take a look here An observation on forum etiquette, and a plea for cordial discourse.. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
george + Posted January 25, 2010 Share #22 Posted January 25, 2010 You are not alone Nicole. Thanks for the post. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhoersch Posted January 25, 2010 Share #23 Posted January 25, 2010 Sed quis moderat ipsos moderates? Moderators do a great job but can't expect to be responsible for everyone's behaviour. Decorum please, gentle Leica users! Well said, Nicole. Gentle Leica users... I like that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhoersch Posted January 25, 2010 Share #24 Posted January 25, 2010 I'm so pleased to see that I am not alone in my concerns, and I thank all of you who have expressed their thoughts here. Like others, I am not advocating censorship, (For as some of you may have noticed, I possess a somewhat warped sense of humour.) just a little forethought and consideration for others. Thank you for your post, Nicole, and please don't unwarp your humour! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffreyg Posted January 25, 2010 Share #25 Posted January 25, 2010 Am glad to support this viewpoint. Decorum goes a long way.... Geoff G. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted January 25, 2010 Share #26 Posted January 25, 2010 pgk, are you a relative to plk? Just kidding Not me lct! As with us all irritation sometimes gets the better of me though:D. We'd all probably do better if we remembered that its all about the end resulting image more often:rolleyes:. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
danyves Posted January 25, 2010 Share #27 Posted January 25, 2010 Advertisement (gone after registration) Thanks Nicole for these comments and initiate this thread. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted January 25, 2010 Share #28 Posted January 25, 2010 Nicole, I also agree that with the lowering tone of some threads/posts, however it does seem concentrated in the digital forums, specifically the M9. I noticed a similar attitude when the M8 was introduced - but I can't work out why it should be. Like you said, my self check for posting any comment/remark is would I say that to the person/s if I were face to face with them at a Leica meeting. Unfortunately lots of people see the anonymity and 'safety' of the internet as an excuse to act like a complete (insert word of choice). The forum rules used to be that one had to register in ones real name/identity and whilst some people have a problem with that I do think it would help cut down on the abusive trolls. I have another idea on the matter which I will PM Andreas with for his consideration (a method used on another - not photography - forum I've visited). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlbertoDeRoma Posted January 25, 2010 Share #29 Posted January 25, 2010 I'm so pleased to see that I am not alone in my concerns, and I thank all of you who have expressed their thoughts here. Like others, I am not advocating censorship, (For as some of you may have noticed, I possess a somewhat warped sense of humour.) just a little forethought and consideration for others. You are definitely not alone - and thank you for starting this thread. I am relatively new to this forum and I find it very friendly and extremely useful (especially in wallet lightening .) As in real life, some people are friendlier, nicer and more helpful than others. When I post photos to the forum, I appreciate the "nice job"s but learn from the constructive criticism: "looks tilted", "too much sharpening for my taste", "I would have cropped it differently" or even "lighten up on the PP dude!" I don't always agree since there is a lot of subjectivity but, more often than not, I learn from the comments. What I've noticed from other online forums in the past is that the line between constructive criticism and attack, civilized and rude, acceptable and not, is not only fuzzy to start with, but its "position" varies from person to person. Is "You might have well have taken those pics with a P+S" an attack, or honest and constructive - if a bit too direct - criticism? Depending on the photos in question, you'll find people on either side of the argument. If someone gave me that feedback, assuming it came from a person who does not make a habit of belittling others, I would probably take it, evaluate it and - if it was justified - I'd probably learn from it. Personally, if I have to deliver some tough criticism, I would choose to sandwich it between more positive/encouraging statements. This is something that, as a manager of people, I've learned is much more effective in changing behavior than simple "you screwed-up X". Consider the following responses to an over-eager newbie's first posting: Response 1: Dear newbie, I see from the 27 photos you posted that you are really getting into it. That's great. However, if you want to get more constructive criticism from this forum, I suggest posting no more 2 or 3 pictures at a time. Overall, I find most of your 27 pictures overexposed and lacking a central theme or attention to composition. Your camera is capable of so much more, but you must first learn to give each shot some time and consideration - not just point, shoot and - especially - post everything that looks remotely interesting. As in many art forms, editing things down to their core is key to success. I recommend you take much more time in composing, editing and selecting your photos. Paying particular attention to exposure. And, even if you are very careful and selective, don't expect to get a really good - "forum-worthy" - photo every time you press the shutter. 1 in 10, 50, 100 is probably more like it. Most of us have been where you are now and made similar "mistakes" in our initial enthusiasm, and I hope you take this feedback in the helpful spirit in which it was given. Response 2: Nice! Response 3 (exaggerated for effect:eek:) : Dude, your pictures suck. If that's the kind of shooting you do, I suggest you sell your Leica, buy a Casio and use the cash for some photography lessons. If the goal of the response is to be helpful (both to the original poster and to the overall quality and atmosphere of the forum), neither #2 nor #3 don't cut it. But #1 would get the message across quite well without alienating the original poster. Alberto Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wda Posted January 25, 2010 Share #30 Posted January 25, 2010 Nicola, I share your thoughts and conclusions entirely. Since joining the old Leica forum I have seen many changes. One is the growth of membership and the number of sub-forums. Such is the wide scope and richness of content that I am rarely able to view and participate in all threads. My feeling is that there are less mischief-makers at this time, certainly in the areas I visit. This reflects well on the Admin and Moderators and members' general manners. There will always be some bombastic posters who we probably wouldn't want to meet in real life. There is no place for them in the Leica Forum. On balance I continue to be impressed with the wonderful global pool of Leica and photography knowledge available within this forum. Perhaps more timely use of the Alarm symbol, which had eluded me, will help keep the tone right. Well done Nicola for raising the issue! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted January 25, 2010 Share #31 Posted January 25, 2010 I think we need more women on the forums. More compassionate tone...and the men become more respectful in their interaction. Can you refer some friends, Nicole? Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scsambrook Posted January 25, 2010 Share #32 Posted January 25, 2010 Nicoleica deserves a big round of aplause for "putting her head above the parapet" and saying what she did. I'm a member of only three photo-forums and have long felt that while this one has had some really interesting and informative posts, it has also had by far the most obnoxious ones. I know the "obnoxities" are very much in the minority, but they really can spoil the whole environment. It isn't so much the rare ones with bad language and "text-speak", that offend me personally, but the ones that take a proprietorial or patronising attitude - the tone of "newcomers not welcome here" that turns up sometimes. I'm sure many people coming here a first-time Leica owners must find it off-putting And by the way, I may be a "Neuer Benutzer" here, but after almost fifty years owning a Leica I'm certainly not a new Leica user. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
photophile Posted January 25, 2010 Share #33 Posted January 25, 2010 Nicole - well said. Best. Coos Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KM-25 Posted January 25, 2010 Share #34 Posted January 25, 2010 I remember that thread, the guy asked for input from the "Wizards". Some were very honest, the images lacked a lot, one person was too harsh though, said it looked like work from a point and shoot, so why even own an M9? I used the topic as a vehicle to voice a concern, that being that the bar of what makes a good photograph is not being lowered, but is simply disappearing as the "Great Capture" circles close out the rest of the visual representation of the world and only pay attention to one or two forums….this is not good folks, it is like playing guitar and only listening to what your peers play, not the masters of the art. I am passionate too, it's my life, not my job or pass time. So I reach very, very high and will until I can no longer physically reach. And I understand that we are all different. So while Nicole asks that we be more kind in how we voice our opinion in regards to the work of others, I ask that once and awhile, we all take a look around at the world of photography and look to see who is doing truly brilliant work born of raw talent, not expensive gear or worse yet….photoshop, and bring it too, into the fold, into the critique. If you are truly passionate about all photography and not just that of your own making or of your peers, then this too, will matter to you. I think that is the sole reason these things get heated, when you post a photograph and ask for an opinion, I am basing mine on every photograph I have ever seen, not just those made by Leica User forum members only, so what am I supposed to say? Constructive criticism is the only way you are going to get better as a photographer through critiques. Hearing "Great Capture" all the time is not doing anything for anyone and lowers the bar to the floor. So be nice, but be real, I will. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
holgerf Posted January 25, 2010 Share #35 Posted January 25, 2010 I'm so pleased to see that I am not alone in my concerns, and I thank all of you who have expressed their thoughts here. Like others, I am not advocating censorship, (For as some of you may have noticed, I possess a somewhat warped sense of humour.) just a little forethought and consideration for others. Nicole, couldn‘t be said better. Thanks for your accomplishment. Comparing the attitudes of the international and the German forum however my feeling is that there is even less politeness and more rudeness in the German forum. Best Holger Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted January 25, 2010 Share #36 Posted January 25, 2010 It's perhaps also that some list members get used to receive congrats on the photo forum. Life is somewhat tougher here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted January 25, 2010 Share #37 Posted January 25, 2010 One thing I've noticed, that I think builds frustration and thus irritability and rudeness, is a certain lack of reading comprehension in some responses. NOT due to a lack of intelligence, but just a rushed surface read, sometimes colored by preconceptions about what someone "likely" means. Plus the fact that this is a multicultural, multilingual forum. There's an old psychologists' technique for making sure one is responding to the other person's intent - and correcting one's own assumptions if they are faulty. Begin each response with "What I hear you saying is....." and then use your own words to rephrase what you thought you heard/read. That: 1) shows you are actually responding to the post and at least attempting to pay attention, and 2) provides a fire-break for misunderstandings, since the followup may well be "Whoops, No - I meant...." - or maybe "I think I actually said....." The exact wording is optional.... _____________________________________ I've never understood the - need - to make people feel bad about their chosen cameras or equipment (even though I've slipped into that mode myself occasionally when irritated). Seems to be an internet thing - Do we really call someone's rangefinder "antiquated" when talking in a camera store or other place where photographers gather? It's not as though Canon is the Indianapolis Colts and Leica/Nikon/Sony the New Orleans Saints (google "Superbowl XLIV"). '"Why is taunting manly? Since taunting is, by definition, intended to make people feel bad about themselves, it's an insensitive act. The opposite of insensitive is sensitive, or caring about other's feelings. Women are sensitive, and since men are the opposite of women, men are insensitive by nature. Therefore, taunting is manly." - from The Alphabet of Manliness, by "Maddox" (George Ouzounian) The Best Page In The Universe. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sailronin Posted January 25, 2010 Share #38 Posted January 25, 2010 Well said Nicole. As a new member to the forum I've found the comments very helpful, the quality of photography very, very high and enjoyed "meeting" a great group of people. I have also run across a couple of comments on some threads that were very condescending and a bit rude, however these are the exception and certainly less common than on other forums I have visited. Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentleman Villain Posted January 25, 2010 Share #39 Posted January 25, 2010 If ya'll think thiis forum is bad, try working in advertising Nicoleica is right that the world could use a bit more courtesy. I certainly have much room for improvement. The problem is that ideas like good old fashioned courtesy are now considered relics of a previously fascist era. What? Tell people how to act? What next? Tell them how to dress? Will women have to stay at home and raise kids? Will homosexuals have to go back in the closet? How much longer 'til the Nazis start another holocaust? Courtesy and manners are implicit white European cultural imperialism. Just having some fun, but it's actually not that far from the truth. It's not possible to agree on single standards of courtesy and politeness in an age of multi-culturalism and diversity. If all opinions must be tolerated, then all manner of expressing opinion must be tolerated as well. Right? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcoombs Posted January 25, 2010 Share #40 Posted January 25, 2010 ...Just having some fun, but it's actually not that far from the truth. It's not possible to agree on single standards of courtesy and politeness in an age of multi-culturalism and diversity. If all opinions must be tolerated, then all manner of expressing opinion must be tolerated as well. Right? Not exactly, in my opinion, and I presume you are being deliberately provocative. The manner of expressing one's opinion should demonstrate a respect for the person whom your are addressing. A simple rule, which cuts across many cultures, is to not write something anonymously that you wouldn't say to them face to face. To do otherwise is a form of cowardice. Doug Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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