An observation on forum etiquette, and a plea for cordial discourse.

[proenca]

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First off, hats off to Nicole .

 

But lets not forget one thing: this is a multicultural, multi religion forum. Its the internet.

 

I work in hotel management and although I consider myself young, I worked for the past 12 years abroad, more specifically in Brazil, France, Spain, England and Switzerland.

 

Switzerland was also the place where I studied and I has the opportunity to be in a university that had more than 90 nationalities and in my class alone I had over 50 or so.

 

That said, Im fortunate to have worked with dozens of different people, either professionally now for the last 10 or 12 years - being a manager or being managed and when I was a student.

 

One thing that I learn is that perception of each person and culture is completly different and different people react absolutly in polar opposites to the same stimulus.

 

And while that is a granted fact for me it isnt for everyone - take a Japanese and a Saudi Arabian.

 

I always have a laugh when I think about this true episdoe : I was watching couple of Japanese friends of mine that were absolutly terrified and almost feeling insulted by watching couple of Saudi friends that were talking to me in Arabic.

 

Arabic people ( which I have many friends ) have a very strong way of talking and to other cultures can even be perceived as rude.

 

We were talking about ( me and the Saudi's ) last weekend party and what happened and it was perceived that we were almost fightning and the Japanese girls came to ask if everything was ok and looked with almost anger to my arabic friends.

 

In the end we all had a laugh but do we have time to explain and understand all this on a internet forum ? No, I'm afraid that most of the time we don't. And things fire up instantly and people have distinct reactinos and things go on from there.

 

Other very important thing and this applies to everyone, that most of the time English is the main language in internet forums and this on in particular ( apart from the obvious German forum... ) but that doesnt mean necessarily means that everyone has a Shakespear command of the language and sometimes "accidents" or misunderstandings DO HAPPEN.

 

I'm sorry and I mean this in a 1000% non insulting/offensive/pedantic way but one of the plain reasons that English is one of the most widely used language in the world is because its easy to learn and to talk. Grammar is simple and most important, the vocabulary is limited. Its easy to get started in English - hence being widely used.

 

Try any Latin based anguage : I'm fortunate enough to know Portuguese, Spanish, Italian and French quite fluently and they are at some point quite similar both in grammar and in wording but ANY/B] of these languages have at least three of four times more vocabulary more than the English language.

 

You simply have so many more words to describe the same thing and have much more gradients ( if that makes sense ) for the same thing.

 

That usually translates that sometimes the wrong wording is easy to choose and great long threads start and people get rude when someone picks the wrong word which wasnt perhaps the correct one... and tell me about it. But not everyone is Shakespear and yes, people should think twice before writing things but sometimes they are thinking of saying something and something else comes out and seems ok.

 

Last but not least a final word : I do remember that thread clearly. And yes, people were plain rude but if I recall correctly, the original poster had a VERY RUDE "f#" you" straight and simple answer to the guy who said that the pictures could have been taken with a P&S so why bother with a M9.

 

To be completly honest, I agree with that guy.

 

The pictures were , to my extent, boring and a simple point and shoot could have pretty much have done the same : wasnt exactly pusing the envelope of the M9 neither in terms of resolution, ISO, aperture or anything else.

 

And I dont exactly remember anything that the first guy who showed that said that in such harsh way - it was pretty much the way he said it - either buffer it because of its cultural, ethnical, language barrier or other background , but hey ....

 

People who post in in the internet sometimes have very fragile EGOs....

 

Might not be the first thing that he wants to hear after posting pictures from your several thousand dollar camera that you pretty much suck as a photographer but... hey, if you REALLY dont want to hear those comments - just simply dont post it.

 

Yes, I can say in a non rude way and there is no excuse for being plain rude. But I dont have to mask it or be nice just because you have a fragile ego. Show the pictures to your parents if you want to hear all the time "wow and great pictures", even if you are shooting a overexposed white rabbit in the snow and barely can see something else than a white frame.

 

If you want to grow as a photographer, you have to take critics in. Yes some people can be harsher than others but skim away the sometimes apparent rudeness of some people and if they suck the picture sucks, well.. ask why. If they take the time to explain, try to understand and to do better. If they ignore your question, well ignore their answer.

 

Because I can be direct and straight to the point and in my culture its fine and accepted but to someone that have an Asian culture with , lets say ( I'm sterotyping here ) with Buddist relgion or faith might find it very rude and at the same time that Russian / Arabic people ( known for their supposedly apparent "coldeness" ) I can even appear very soft and mellow. Go figure.

 

There are imbecils, jerks and stupid people in every culture, creed, faith and country. And as many nice, welcome, warm people.

 

So while I agree 100% with Nicoles post, I had to put cultural and language barriers into consideration and that sometimes people dont think about that and a fight and insult reply is the simpler answer.

[bill]

Nicole, thank you for a timely and well reasoned thread. I appreciate your logic for starting it in the M8 forum, but I do feel by doing so some of those who could learn from it will not see it.

 

I agree with much of what has already been said, in particular the points about hiding behind online identities and behaving differently to the way one would in the "real" world. For what it's worth, I don't believe in hiding anything. I use my real name, and my online presence is easy to find and to track, for both my personal and business activities. I behave exactly the same here as I do in real life - I speak my mind, I cannot abide arrogance, pomposity and ignorant rudeness, and I say so. I have met many members over the years, most recently on Saturday, in Trafalgar Square, and I would hope that each would vouch for the fact that "what you get is what you see".

 

What I have noticed, and see more and more, is the attitude that started with the advent of the M8 and seems to have continued with the M9 - an influx of new members who have no concept of anything beyond the model they have bought, but who believe that the money they have spent entitles them to run the company. They have thin skins, large egos and a transmit-button constantly set to "on". This tendency in particular to broadcast but not listen is, I believe, the cause of many of the more recent long and acrimonious threads.

 

Finally, I am one of those who have recently spent more time and effort commenting on photos in the photo forums. I firmly believe that the anodyne and thoughtless "Great Capture!" type of comment is worse than useless because it encourages mediocrity - as does not commenting at all. Those who say "if you can't say anything nice don't say anything at all" are both abdicating their responsibility to help others and helping to drive the standard down.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

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[pklein]

Brava, Nicole! Civility is one of the few things that distinguish us from the animals.

 

Whenever anyone feels hot-headed while on l-camera-forum, I suggest they think of the following cartoon:

http://xkcd.com/386/

 

--Peter

Edited January 25, 2010 by pklein

[wilfredo]

Nicole,

 

Thank you. There is a difference between constructive criticism and downright rudeness. For some reason photography forums seem to attract a good number of people whose only aim in life is to be rude and obstinate. Some of us remember the legendary "Fly Guy." The sad part there was that this person was a great photographer but managed to get on just about everybody's nerve.

 

I think we all need to be vigilant and hit the little red triangle when things start to get out of hand on this forum. This is mostly a fun place for me, it's been that way for the last few years!

[adan]

@pklein: great cartoon!...

 

but sometimes egregious BS does need to be called to account. Politely, if possible...

 

"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." - Mark Twain

 

I don't want Nicole's thread sent to Barnack's Bar, so I'll be vague. But I'm sure everyone can think back over the past decade and come up with their own examples of when a little more critical thinking and "Speaking Truth to Power" would have made for a better world.

[peteztan]

Truly well said and totally agree with Nicol....

[don_panko]

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My experience with forums is that they go through stages of maturity and these usually follow the maturity of the product which is the common reason for the forum. When a product is new there are fans who ignore short comings and there are detractors who want to find fault. There are those who threaten class action lawsuits and those who tire of answering the same questions from each newbie.

 

The good news is that the trouble makers move on when they change to a new product leaving behind those who are satisfied and happy to share knowledge that will keep the old product useful.

 

The best forums for me are the ones that support an older product for the long haul.

[moondawg]

I'm with you 100%

[sandymc]

I agree with Nicole's plea for cordiality. Especially to new users who may be overwhelmed by the sheer amount of information available available here.

 

However, I'd also like to suggest that the forum mods be more aggressive about making threads sticky, or perhaps create an FAQs section. Some items - e.g., "red edges", "g-stops", etc come up regularly from new users; we could perhaps reduce everyone's frustration level by making that information more easily available.

 

Sandy

[Speenth]

... The problem is that ideas like good old fashioned courtesy are now considered relics of a previously fascist era ...

 

Just having some fun, but it's actually not that far from the truth. It's not possible to agree on single standards of courtesy and politeness in an age of multi-culturalism and diversity. If all opinions must be tolerated, then all manner of expressing opinion must be tolerated as well. Right?

 

I realise you're being jovially provocative, but still I'm saddened to see courtesy and fascism linked. Furthermore, differences of opinion (cultural or otherwise) do not compromise good manners. Manners meld the differences.

 

At it's heart, Nicole's eloquent appeal for a more courteous forum is about civilised and constructive dialogue. There is surely no need for rudeness and aggression in our forum. Those who apply such traits reveal only their own shortcomings.

[photogen]

Thank you Nicole. I have just answered the Forum survey questions and my comment was about how rudeness could prevent, particularly newer members, from contributing. I have certainly kept a very low profile not wishing to be crushed. Your posting has certainly bought out the strength of feeling shared by many so well done. As another woman I have particularly enjoyed your responses on the forum which are without exception helpful and professional. Jo

[wstotler]

Thanks, Nicole.

 

-->I think mis-reads of posts and hurried replies are the major factor here.

 

The other factor is a larger number of new M8 users who are picking up the camera second-hand and have "basic" questions. I think people can be short with those users or just ignore them.

 

Plus, it is a forum, which tends to lead to meanness.

 

Good you're pointing it out, though. Let's hope for better in 2010.

 

Oh, and there's this basic Internet problem (couldn't resist sharing it). . . .

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited January 26, 2010 by wstotler

[lanetomlane]

It had to be said and you said it well Nicole. Thanks on behalf of all of us.

_________________________

Cheers, Tom

[michali]

Nicole- Thank you for standing up and expressing what many of us have been observing recently.

 

I've also noticed that there has been a recent upsurge in derogatory posts. IMO possibly as a consequence of the number of new users who have joined this Forum since the launch of the M9. Possibly it's a combination of some the older "wizards" here being intolerant of comments made by some of the "new kids on the block", or some of the "new kids" just not understanding the required etiquette. I agree with Bill, there are many who hide behind the anonymity of the internet. It is no coincidence that many of the abusive comments come from these anonymous members.

 

This Forum is an amazing resource of knowledge and talent, which we all wish to participate and share in, there is absolutely no excuse for anyone to be abusive or rude.

 

Nicole once again thank you for highlighting what many of us have been thinking, before standards slip too far here.

[George James]

Thank you Nicole, very well said, I agree totally.

 

George

[markgay]

There's an easy way to calm discussions down. Require people to post with their real name. Makes a big difference. Wall St Journal does it.

 

Putting your name to a comment makes you think twice about it.

 

It's not a complete solution. For that you'd have to implement a 15 minute delay before comments appear, giving the poster time to reconsider.

 

Finally, you'd have to ban posting during happy hour .. but since the site's international that would be tricky.

 

Cheers,

Mark

Edited January 26, 2010 by markgay

[lct]

There's an easy way to calm discussions down. Require people to post with their real name...

Some people cannot do that for safety, professional or whatever reasons. Principle of confidentiality set forth in European Law prescribes « minimising the processing of personal data and (...) using anonymous or pseudonymous data where possible. »

[KM-25]

There's an easy way to calm discussions down. Require people to post with their real name. Makes a big difference.

 

I doubt it makes that big of a difference overall.

 

People mostly know who I am, call me Dan. But I refuse to expose my name in a searchable username anymore, it is not really necessary.

 

I also think as good as the intention of this initial post was, it is not as big of a problem as folks make it out to be here, don't think it is any worse than any other forum, it's the nature of the internet. People are mis-understood all the time, it's i-contact, not eye-contact.

 

If it seems like a huge deal to folks, then you are probably spending too much time on here clickty-clacking and not enough time in the real world, shooting ( see sig. ) anyway.

 

I will slip back off the radar as of tonight, I have about 6 days of paid shooting, then back on the Kodachome-road.

 

Be good children!

[brianv]

Why is it that girls named "Nicole" love Leica's so.

 

You name a Kid Nicole, call her Nikki, put a Nikon SP in her hands when she is four, and she looks at a Leica M3 and states "Daddy, your camera is Beautiful. I want to take pictures with Daddy's camera". Then proceeds to use it with the 9cm F4 Elmar and focus the thing.

 

Just thought this would get a laugh.

 

I would not get between a Lovely Lady and her Leica.

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[Nicoleica]

Brian,

Just wait until she starts to drive. Then you are in deep trouble.