The Wrong Question?

[earleygallery]

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James, I'm sure if Leica has said 6 months ago "we can design a digital M but because of factors x.y. and z you'll need to use a filter to obtain the best results" a lot of us would have thought that while we prefer not to use filters, it was a price worth paying to get a digital M.

 

Steve, totally agree with that. Given a choice between ultimate possible quality or the necessary compromises I'm sure most would choose quality.

 

Leica only messed up on the delivery of this message. The other issues are clearly early production gremlins. However, I do wonder how the IR issues may affect sales especially to the type of well off amateur who would by an M (i.e. the Queen uses an M, would she have the sort of level of interest in photography to bother with IR filters and colour profiles? - extreme example but the M needs to sell to these type of users as well).

[marknorton]

If you look at the Simon Wheatley pictures in the Leica System Brochure, they're a pretty dismal display of the camera's capability and you have to wonder whether anyone putting the brochure together had the temerity to ask: "Is this the best it can do?"

 

Erl, is your camera going back for the "big repair"?

 

I thought I would keep using my R-D1 even after I got the M8 but it hasn't turned out that way. The M8 is so much better to use - viewfinder and controls, menus and image review - that going back to the R-D1 is quite a revelation. Haven't decided what to so with it yet though.

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[frc]

Wheatley's pictures a pretty dismal display of the camera\s capability!?

His photography is about the subject, not about nice pix.

Getting this close to adolecents in a subculture requires a lot of skill, not only photographicalyl but also socially. It's being there when the action takes place. You can't wait for that beautiful you wanted.

Before the M8 was released one of the remarks I made was thet Leica should look for new heroes, ones that make the M-camera appealing to younger photographers. The initial wonder of how sharp and technical perfect a picture can be gas faded a long time ago.

Older photographers on this forum have been complaining of young art-directors telling them the delivered images being to sharp, bright,to whatever.

The present image-culture with it's perfect taken and digital postprocesed images has become boring to the youngster. Look at the art they produce, if it is not honest it's shoved.

Wheatley is spot on. How can this not be a good presentation for the M8.

Many things have gone wrong, concept ( what this thread is about ), misestimation of the clients reaction to the IR-sensitivity, wrong and late reaction when the anger about the flaws was expessed on the internet.

If one looks at what a DSLR makes of shots in difficult light and compare it to what an M does I think no one should complane about the M's results. If this is not your style of taking pictures, just look at something else.

Examples: M ( P not 8 ) vs. DSLR required flash because of the low light and fast action needed in this situation. M35lux asph / 28 1-2.8 D ( sameFOV due to censor-size )

When using the MP hardly anybody asked what it was for, flashing the Nikon gave so many negative reactions I stopped using it that evening.

Pics made during an inquiry amongst coloured youth about being refused at the door when going to clubs.

 

Pics both straight out of scanner / camera.

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[jrc]

While I think it is appropriate to criticize Leica for their problems, and certainly about the way the M8 was marketed, I think it is sad that almost all of the communications about the M8 in these forums is negative. The M8, in my humble estimation, produces the finest files I have seen from 35mm and I own a 1DsMkII. a D2X, and a R9/lDMR.

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I think it would be interesting to have a poll here. Many, if not most, of the posters have yet to get and use an M8 so they are talking from a purist perspective only. I would like to know how many of those who have actually received and are using their M8's are planning on getting rid of them.

Woody Spedden

 

If you read through this forum and a couple of others that are dedicated to the M8, you'll notice that the harshest critics of everything "M" -- the PR problems, the electronics, the magenta -- don't have an M8. Or, when they say they do, you suspect that they don't, because the quality of their commentary seems to be political, rather than technical or experience-based. When somebody like Mark Norton has a critical comment, you pay attention because he's obviously working with the camera, and the commentary is leavened with positive information. M8 owners are not, as some have said, "fanboys." A fairly large number of them, I suspect, are engineers, which is one reason they were interested in Leica in the first place, and they demand a quality product. But there's a difference in the tenor of *their* commentary, and that of people who are "thinking of canceling my order" or "plan to get one" and who in the meantime bash the M8 for all they're worth.

 

My M8 is on its way to Jersey (sob.) I'm now back to the R-D1, which I haven't shot for a month, and I'm finding that, hmmm, this IS kind of a fun camera...

 

JC

[Peter41951]

Well put, John, I couldn't agree with you more.

[ho_co]

There is enough circumstantial evidence to suggest that Leica would have been fully aware of the IR issue long before the release date. I agree with Mark that they probably thought it was something that they could deal with through firmware and/or profiles.

Ian--

You're right. Leica had also planned for IR filters to be available about the end of November, according to earlier posts here: Filters, profiles, firmware were all in the planning. But please read the paragraph in question in relation to the previous one, where I mentioned that 1) Leica was aware of the IR sensitivity, but unaware of the degree to which it would be problematical; and that 2) testers and consumers alike originally overlooked the magenta problem.

 

I've spoken to people at Leica who were astonished by the uproar caused by the IR issue. I won't argue with you because I think we're in agreement, but lay the emphasis at different places. They knew of the IR problem, yes; but they were blindsided by its magnitude once the camera reached the market. That's what I tried to say when I wrote:

 

As for excessive IR sensitivity, Leica was truly surprised at the degree to which it made a difference. They knew it was present, but had no idea it was going to be such an issue from day one. For example, we all looked at S Reid's 'fireman picture' and marveled at its presence and depth--but not until someone took a picture of his R-D1 and discovered that different parts reflected IR differently did we go back and discover that the fireman's uniform was magenta.

 

This is not something Leica 'forgot to tell us.' The camera had so many great capabilities that no one noticed the IR till it was on the market.

--HC

[marknorton]

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Frc, I'm sorry, "dismal display" was too harsh. Simon Wheatley's photo essay is quite interesting but as sample images, they fail to promote the camera in the way they should. For a marketing document, I'd expect much more vibrant (and correct) colour and more varied content, something like Sean's New Hampshire parade.

 

I spent a lovely afternoon yesterday with the M8. It's a great camera there's no doubt and if you're unsure, don't be. If there's any way you can pay for it before 12/31, do it, because the 30% lens discount seems to be available to all-comers before that date.

[lct]

...If one looks at what a DSLR makes of shots in difficult light and compare it to what an M does I think no one should complane about the M's results. If this is not your style of taking pictures, just look at something else...

The colors of your DSLR look more accurate than your MP's, Frc, with all due respect (green cast).

BTW flash is not mandatory with DSLRs, fast primes and small bodies may be used as well.

[peterb]

So what. So lenses for the moment need an IR filter. What's the big deal?

 

For a long time the M's (and all cameras for that matter) needed UV filters to cut out excessive blue light in images until Leitz developed lens coatings that made their use unnecessary. (But some continued to use the UV filter to 'protect' the front lens elements of their stratospherically priced glass). And I'm sure in time, a coating that deals with IR will also be developed and incorporated on Leitz' fine family of glass.

 

So Leica created a camera that can see TOO much. (How's that for a problem?)

 

And from what I hear, for black and white, this machine has no equal. Past or present.

 

No I don't think Leitz asked the wrong questions. In fact, I'm blown away by the solution to what was at the time an impossible challenge. Create a sensor that could deal with close-to-film-surface lenses. And they did. Or Kodak did.

 

No, I think they asked the right question. How can we develop a digital M camera? A digital version of a proven picture taking platform. And I think they succeeded beyond anyone's expectations.

 

Peter