Digital salvation for R users

[R6.2]

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I recently wrote to Leica Germany asking if there would be a "digital solution for Leica R users" (from Leica itself) and mentioned that I was looking at the recently released Panasonic GH1 as a possible alternative "crossover solution".

Their reply came back this morning and I quote:

 

"Dear Mr Hodges,

 

thank you very much for your request.

 

We know very well about this serious situation concerning the following system of the R-system. Unfortunately it was not possible for the Leica Camera AG to develop a digital camera body for the R-system simultaneous to the new S-System.

 

But our important aim is to continue the R-system into the digital technology and we are engaged to offer our R-customers an optimal solution which allows using the analogue lenses in combination with a fully digital body. For the necessary technical innovations the S-System will be an ambitious platform to integrate proved features into the new R-follower.

 

We still cannot release any exact data about the introduction date of the new system, but be asssured, it won’t be introduced in the next 6 month.

 

Thank you for your understanding."

 

This also aligns with information I received from the distributor in Australia recently, who implied that something was happening, but not to expect an announcement before Photokina 2010.

 

Life is good again, start saving your pennies

 

Graeme.

[integrale]

<snip>

 

Life is good again, start saving your pennies

 

<snip>

 

Interesting; if it's gonna be based on S2, you need to start saving

[jaapv]

That is not what the mail says. It talks about integrating S system technology into new developments - which is hardly news, as Leica has been saying that since day 1 of the S2.

[earleygallery]

Indeed, the price of any eventual 'Leica' solution will be significant. I'm not sure, by the time it does reach the market, if it will make sense to spend, I don't know, £10K on a body so that you can use your R lenses which are currently worth a fraction of that. Certainly for me it wouldn't.

 

Of course if the solution is in fact a new camera system which happens to be able to accept R lenses AND maintain auto full aperture functionality then that's a benefit.

 

As it stands if you must use a DSLR then it makes more sense to just sell up and move to another system, or if you love your R glass then buy a Canon/Nikon etc, and the necessary R adapters and put up with stop down metering/shooting.

[wildlightphoto]

Indeed, the price of any eventual 'Leica' solution will be significant. I'm not sure, by the time it does reach the market, if it will make sense to spend, I don't know, £10K on a body so that you can use your R lenses which are currently worth a fraction of that.

 

One of the reasons Leica gave for not developing the R10 was that it would be too expensive, on the order of the M9 or more, so I don't see that the solution will be priced at £10K.

 

With a good digital body that can take advantage of the R lens' full-aperture metering and auto-aperture you'll see the market value of the lenses go up and besides there are enough R lenses that put comparable CaNikon lenses to shame that a body priced at the same level as the better CaNikon cameras would be a viable solution for many of us.

[theendlesshouse]

Good news greeted with cynicism?

[topoxforddoc]

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As Doug says, I think a new R digital will be £5-6k. If it is, then I'll be early in the queue. It will undoubtedly be better than my DMRs, in which case IQ should be stunning.

 

Best wishes,

[nhabedi]

Of course if the solution is in fact a new camera system which happens to be able to accept R lenses AND maintain auto full aperture functionality then that's a benefit.

 

The only reasonable solution I can see is something that is a) full format (because you want to use the old lenses and because Leica have committed themselves to using large sensors), not an SLR (which I think must mean EVIL), c) more compatible with existing R lenses than the current workarounds, and d) a new system with new lenses which would also appeal to customers who don't have R lenses.

 

Everything else simply wouldn't make sense, neither for the customers nor for Leica. IMHO, YMMV, etc.

[earleygallery]

Good news greeted with cynicism?

 

Well the 'news' is no different from Leica's last public statement on the matter, but they said then that there would be a 'digital solution' for R users although not made by Leica.......

[earleygallery]

With a good digital body that can take advantage of the R lens' full-aperture metering and auto-aperture you'll see the market value of the lenses go up and besides there are enough R lenses that put comparable CaNikon lenses to shame that a body priced at the same level as the better CaNikon cameras would be a viable solution for many of us.

 

Doug,

 

When I suggested in a previous thread that in the absence of their own AF '35mm' DSLR system that Leica could look at offering Nikon/Canon mount AF lenses, I was told that only people with existing R glass are bothering to use them on other camera bodies, and people who buy into Nikon/Canon to start with wouldn't pay premium prices for Leica glass because the top Nikon/Canon lenses are as good or better!

 

Despite that I see fairly regular posts here looking for advice, from mostly Canon users who want to buy R lenses - OK they're relatively cheap s/h but even so, it would suggest that there is a demand there of some level.

 

However, IMHO the camera which Leica eventually produce (or co produce) will need to be an excellent camera/lens system in its own right. I don't think that a 'digital solution for R users' will be sufficient.

 

Time will tell!

[John Thawley]

Maybe I missed something in the interpretation, but it sounded to me that their intent is to produce a "35mm" system using adaptations the 'S' technology (in other words, what they've learned) and it will probably have some means of still using R glass.

 

You can't lose sight of the fact that they've stopped producing R glass. So... they're not going to bring out a new camera that even hints at being propitiatory to the R system.

 

It sounds to me that they are going to go after a full frame 35mm digital 'SLR' with auto focus and it's own dedicated series of lenses.

 

It's somewhat logical. They limped along with a SLR using a digital back for as long as they could. If they're going to be in the SLR business, it needs to be hands down, head and shoulders above both Canon and Nikon's S bodies..... by a lot. Especially when you consider it probably won't go toe-to-toe price wise.

 

Just an opinion... I could be wrong.

 

JT

[wildlightphoto]

... When I suggested in a previous thread that in the absence of their own AF '35mm' DSLR system that Leica could look at offering Nikon/Canon mount AF lenses, I was told that only people with existing R glass are bothering to use them on other camera bodies, and people who buy into Nikon/Canon to start with wouldn't pay premium prices for Leica glass because the top Nikon/Canon lenses are as good or better!

 

Consider the sources. Top Nikon / Canon lenses as good or better? I guarantee I didn't write that.

[Guest BigSplash]

This surely is good news isn't it?

If I read the above correctly it means we can go to SH Photo and buy a bunch of new R lenses at significant (50%) discounts and buy a new discounted R film body for any analogue work. This has to be the Leica offer of the century if we are sure that there will be support down the road from Leica.

Then we just wait for a S2 junior to materialise, at a realistic DSLR price...most likely this will happen at Photokina next year. That puts Leica back in the upper end of the DSLR market, and will keep the existing R community happy.

 

I shall watch this space with interest as I really think that it would bring back fabulous Leica glass with stsate of the art digital technology for the SLR.

[atufte]

Doug,

 

When I suggested in a previous thread that in the absence of their own AF '35mm' DSLR system that Leica could look at offering Nikon/Canon mount AF lenses, I was told that only people with existing R glass are bothering to use them on other camera bodies, and people who buy into Nikon/Canon to start with wouldn't pay premium prices for Leica glass because the top Nikon/Canon lenses are as good or better!

 

Neither Canon or Nikon is in the same league as Leica-R lenses, not even close, if there is a point to this, at least Nikon is closer the Canon, i have all the L lenses in the same focal length as my Leica-R counterparts and let me tell you i use the Leica-R lenses about 90% even if i loose AF (which is not a big deal really, since the R lenses are best in it's class MF wise) i also use Nikkor lenses and the older AIS lenses are brilliant, but the never ones are like the L's at least to my eye, to perfect, to high in contrast and lacks any form of character/identity what so ever, the L lenses also vignettes 2 or 3 stop's wide open which my R lenses do not to the same extent (less than half a stop), both my Zeiss and Leica R lenses produce better color and have a distinct signature, which newer Nikon and all Canon's do not have, remember everything is not about sharpness...(sorry all brick wall test pixel peepers;-) and come to think about it, the L lenses also have copious amounts of CA as well, which sucks big time in my eyes...

 

I have been a Leica M user professionally for over 15 years (and still is), and i find the R lenses as good as the M counterparts in every respect except size, (but this add's up for the "i see what i actually get" way of working with the R lenses)

 

So of course there is a marked for this system...(and the R lens prices would of course skyrocket if such a system will become available)

[GreyCoupe]

Well, I for one would be willing to settle for a very light-tight box, with a Leica R mount on the front of it, through the lens focusing, a decent light meter, manual shutter speed, and a hellaciously good sensor to make photographs with my R lenses. It can read Panasonic on the body's face, or any other maker's logo. Just let me get my R lenses out and love making photographs with them again.

[jsrockit]

If they're going to be in the SLR business, it needs to be hands down, head and shoulders above both Canon and Nikon's S bodies..... by a lot. Especially when you consider it probably won't go toe-to-toe price wise.

 

Really? I didn't think the R series (bodies) were ever head and shoulders above Canon and Nikon.

[roguewave]

Maybe I missed something in the interpretation, but it sounded to me that their intent is to produce a "35mm" system using adaptations the 'S' technology (in other words, what they've learned) and it will probably have some means of still using R glass.

 

You can't lose sight of the fact that they've stopped producing R glass. So... they're not going to bring out a new camera that even hints at being propitiatory to the R system.

 

It sounds to me that they are going to go after a full frame 35mm digital 'SLR' with auto focus and it's own dedicated series of lenses.

 

It's somewhat logical. They limped along with a SLR using a digital back for as long as they could. If they're going to be in the SLR business, it needs to be hands down, head and shoulders above both Canon and Nikon's S bodies..... by a lot. Especially when you consider it probably won't go toe-to-toe price wise.

 

Just an opinion... I could be wrong.

 

JT

 

John, I don't agree. There are so many extraordinary lens designs in the R system: The entire Summilux line, the APO's macro & tele's. Leica doesn't have to really update these designs to remain far out front of so called competitiors. IF the M9 can provide the profits, a similar solution is at hand for a FF lightbox for not just R glass, but lenses that will ADD functionality to existing & improved designs. The market for SLR systems, with mirrors & without so dwarfs the rangefinder population that Leica can't afford to surrender this consumer base and most important the money to be made. In fact, I believe we will see several solutions at different levels from the technology that will flow from the S2.

 

Look at the LX3/DLux 4. These are huge hits. Extremely profitable & very fine image makers, more that rivaling the competition. Leica has a knowledge base that exceeds the competition and the spine to demand & deliver the best. I thinks things look very promising. I hope management has put in place the plans to train enough skilled labor to build the M9's, S2's & future SLR-R products to come. As the world recovers, the buyers will be there.

 

I take great exception to your comment that Leica "limped along". My DMR is far & away the finest digital slr on the planet.

[earleygallery]

Consider the sources. Top Nikon / Canon lenses as good or better? I guarantee I didn't write that.

 

Not you Doug. Here's the last thread where I mooted the idea. The last to post has made the statement, no one challenged it so I guess he must be right I have made the same suggestion numerous times over the years, but always the response has been Leica wouldn't want to damage sales of their own system. Now that they don't have a system what's to damage? Unless of course there is something more than just a 3rd party 'solution' in the pipeline?

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/customer-forum/105948-new-leica-products.html

[John Thawley]

John, I don't agree. There are so many extraordinary lens designs in the R system: The entire Summilux line, the APO's macro & tele's. Leica doesn't have to really update these designs to remain far out front of so called competitiors. IF the M9 can provide the profits, a similar solution is at hand for a FF lightbox for not just R glass, but lenses that will ADD functionality to existing & improved designs. The market for SLR systems, with mirrors & without so dwarfs the rangefinder population that Leica can't afford to surrender this consumer base and most important the money to be made. In fact, I believe we will see several solutions at different levels from the technology that will flow from the S2.

 

Look at the LX3/DLux 4. These are huge hits. Extremely profitable & very fine image makers, more that rivaling the competition. Leica has a knowledge base that exceeds the competition and the spine to demand & deliver the best. I thinks things look very promising. I hope management has put in place the plans to train enough skilled labor to build the M9's, S2's & future SLR-R products to come. As the world recovers, the buyers will be there.

 

I take great exception to your comment that Leica "limped along". My DMR is far & away the finest digital slr on the planet.

 

Maybe you want to re-read my post. I think we're saying the same thing. Except, as I recall... Leica has been quite specific that they won't be producing R anything anymore. So, my suggestion is that they might do a new SLR system (call it S junior or whatever) with its own line of lenses along with perhaps an adapter of sorts for R lenses.

 

My comment about "limping" along was NOT in reference to the image quality... not by a long shot. I was referring to the business model and revenues as they align with the rest of the digital SLR world. Yes, the image quality was fantastic, but the system in the grand scheme of things was a bit out of step. If it really could compete in the marketplace, they'd still be making it. Right? Or did they just stop making it to improve it's collectible value? I didn't think so.

 

JT

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[wildlightphoto]

... did they just stop making it to improve it's collectible value?

 

Imacon made the cost of additional production prohibitive after they were swallowed up by Hasselblad.