rondeb Posted October 10, 2009 Share #141 Posted October 10, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) You can tell the difference between the M8.2 and M9. I don't have super sensitivity. It feels different and it sounds different. I'd also think the sensor recharging could be done at a different time - if that's what it is. Best, Ron Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 10, 2009 Posted October 10, 2009 Hi rondeb, Take a look here M9 shutter lag?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
diogenis Posted October 10, 2009 Share #142 Posted October 10, 2009 In any case, if they can solve it easily then fine, but personally I couldn't care less. It's all in the paper. The time it takes for your finger to move from trigger2 step to trigger3 and actually shoot, is a lot more than 10 20 or 100ms Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhabedi Posted October 10, 2009 Share #143 Posted October 10, 2009 I'd also think the sensor recharging could be done at a different time - if that's what it is. This has to be done exactly before the photo is taken, there is no alternative. It's not recharged, it is reset to empty it of unwanted photons, so to say. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhabedi Posted October 10, 2009 Share #144 Posted October 10, 2009 Could you post a link to Michael's description? It's here: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/1069956-post14.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tgray Posted October 10, 2009 Share #145 Posted October 10, 2009 Humans are most certainly sensitive to 100 ms. The difference between the M8 and M9 might be hard to tell, 20 ms, especially since you are going from 80 to 100 ms, and not 20 to 40 ms (think if this way - you can tell the difference a minute makes, but you are much more aware of the difference between 1 and 2 minutes than you are 50 and 51 minutes). Whether or not that extra 20 ms makes a difference, I don't know. Probably not. There is a big difference between 15 ms and 100 ms though - one that might make a difference in you getting the shot you think you are. If you are ready for a shot and anticipating it, it probably takes about a quarter of a second for you to take the pictures. Maybe shorter, maybe longer. However, lets just call it .25 seconds. There's a difference between .265 seconds and .35 seconds in capturing your shot. We're already disadvantaged by the fact that at best, we are taking the picture .25 seconds after we wanted to, but then throw on another tenth. Think of it this way - take some pictures of people interacting with the shutter speed set at 1/10th and see where some of them end up compared to where they started. I'm sure you'll get a lot of half closed eyes, changed facial expressions, etc. Enough of that though - is this refreshing business something intrinsic to CCDs, or Leica's electronics, or all sensors? I'm assuming CMOS doesn't have this issue otherwise the D3 would have some timing issues. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chanyr Posted October 10, 2009 Share #146 Posted October 10, 2009 Pretty well confirms usefulness of the Ed Schwartz Shutter Release Test through which i got 70ms for the M8, 90ms for the 5D and 50ms for the R-D1 is raw mode. Would be interesting to know if the M8 or M9 shutter lag is reduced in jpeg mode. FWIW the R-D1 is much faster then (20ms). I tried the test with a Nikon D700 and got ~40ms and ~80ms for an Olympus E1. The scale for sub 100ms is too small on the chart. I used 1/250 sec as the shutter speed. As a sidenote. Gamers, especially professional gamers can feel the difference in difference between 10 to 20 ms of network lag. A network lag of 50ms and above will definitely be noticed by them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted October 11, 2009 Share #147 Posted October 11, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) It's here: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/1069956-post14.html Thanks! The guy's as good in German as he is in English! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted October 11, 2009 Share #148 Posted October 11, 2009 I spent years, as did many others, shooting Hasse4lblad MF with a substantially longer lag. Can't remember what it is. However, I never missed the 'decisive moment' because of it, together with substantial VF blackout. I did miss it, on occasions, because of my own lag though. My point is, the critical (but not the only) thing is to know your gear. Get familiar with it. At that point 'lag', 'blackout', etc really don't exist. Similar to to setting the distributor timing on a car and advancing it for acceleration etc. Get 'the feel', and be in control. IOW, practice, practice....... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fewe Posted October 13, 2009 Share #149 Posted October 13, 2009 I spent years, as did many others, shooting Hasse4lblad MF with a substantially longer lag. Can't remember what it is. However, I never missed the 'decisive moment' because of it, together with substantial VF blackout. I did miss it, on occasions, because of my own lag though. My point is, the critical (but not the only) thing is to know your gear. Get familiar with it. At that point 'lag', 'blackout', etc really don't exist. Similar to to setting the distributor timing on a car and advancing it for acceleration etc. Get 'the feel', and be in control. IOW, practice, practice....... Exactly the same like my experience. The problem is not how big the time lag is, but you get a problem with the time lag if you shoot alternately with cameras with different time lags. Many years ago I have used a Canon T90 which has a relatively long time lag of 200ms or so. This never was a problem for me - like your experience with the Hasselblad. Then I shoot with a Minolta CLE which has an extremely short time lag. I always shoot too early with this camera. My explanation to this - I have spoken to some neurologists about this, maybe here is someone who can confirm or correct this: The human beeing has a time lag of approx. 1/4 Seconds (it differs from person to person and also age of the person). This means: What we actually see is that what happened at least 1/4 Second in the past. Therefore in fact it is not possible to react in time. You only can presee what will happen and press the release shutter at the correct moment much more earlier than you actually see this moment with your eyes. Because of the experience with a specific camera you learn how much before you have to press the button to get the picture at the moment you want to catch in the photo. Therefore it is not so much important whether the shutter time lag is 15ms or 200ms. It is only important that you have in your "feeling" how long the time lag is. Therefore - of course - it can be a problem if you work sometimes with a M8/M9 and sometimes with a Leica-M for Film. Edit: Maybe it is possible to learn to work with cameras with different time lags, I dont know. Maybe it is not a problem if the cameras are very much different like Hasselblad and Leica. But at least if you are good experienced to work with one specific camera then you have to relearn the time lag specifics if you switch to another camera. Maybe this could be like my personal experiences with typing on keyboards: It is not a problem to sometimes write on a palmtop computer with my thumbs and sometimes write on the PC keyboard. But it is difficult if I switch from a conventional PC keyboard with a 19-mm-key pitch to a keyboard with 17mm key pitch (like on laptop computers), because they are too much similar and my "personal operating programm for keyboards" in my brain do not switch. ;-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ModernMan Posted October 13, 2009 Share #150 Posted October 13, 2009 The shutter lag on the M9 seems within the bounds of acceptable performance. One might have expected that it would be less, considering there is no mirror which has to flip out of the way and then come to rest. The delay in wake up time from sleep mode (time from when you wake the camera up until you can take a picture -- seems like about 750ms) seems more annoying, but hasn't caused me to miss any shot. The delay between shots is perhaps more frustrating, from my perspective anyway. A leasurely half second or so for the motor to cock the shutter. In situations where I can't fortell the future and can only estimate the decisive moment approximately, a faster frame rate would be welcome. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
drstefanlenz Posted October 13, 2009 Share #151 Posted October 13, 2009 the m9 has 0,16 sec of shutterlag according to the test in colorfoto Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodyspedden Posted October 13, 2009 Share #152 Posted October 13, 2009 Shutter lag on the Nikon D3X is 37ms. If the M''s are near 80ms that is a (specified) significant difference. Does it matter? Can't help you there. I think sometimes it is the sounds the camera makes rather than the actual event of firing the shutter. Could be wrong though........JMHO Woody Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhabedi Posted December 11, 2009 Share #153 Posted December 11, 2009 To warm up this old thread let me provide some anecdotal evidence regarding the test I previously criticized as being too coarse... I had three frames left on a roll of film in my M4-P and filled them by shooting the clock. As described on the page, I tried to press the shutter (which was already half-pressed) exactly when the arrow pointed at zero. Here are the results: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! I then did the same with my M8.2. Here are three typical results as well: I did more than three shots with the M8.2, but the results were almost all the same (except for one case where I was twice as slow and one case where I was a bit faster). In fact, you'll see that the results within the M8.2 group are almost equal - see my remark about the test being too coarse above. Anyway. This very rough and unscientific test convinced me that the M8.2 has indeed a noticeable shutter lag compared to the M4-P. Not much and in almost all cases not relevant, but there is a difference. Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! I then did the same with my M8.2. Here are three typical results as well: I did more than three shots with the M8.2, but the results were almost all the same (except for one case where I was twice as slow and one case where I was a bit faster). In fact, you'll see that the results within the M8.2 group are almost equal - see my remark about the test being too coarse above. Anyway. This very rough and unscientific test convinced me that the M8.2 has indeed a noticeable shutter lag compared to the M4-P. Not much and in almost all cases not relevant, but there is a difference. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/96390-m9-shutter-lag/?do=findComment&comment=1148056'>More sharing options...
jaapv Posted December 12, 2009 Share #154 Posted December 12, 2009 Speak up M9'ers. -Ron Any shutterlag there might be - I would call it similar or slightly less than the M8- is utterly irrelevant in any conceivable form of photography. If this bothers you, you are photographing rifle bullets penetrating lightbulbs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gravastar Posted December 12, 2009 Share #155 Posted December 12, 2009 I'm not convinced at all about the accuracy of the test using the spinning arrow, here's why. Run the test with the left hand half of the screen and a little bit of the lower right covered, so that you can't see the arrow head before it reaches the 12 o'clock position. If you're like me you will obtain very different results. That's because when you can always see the arrow your brain anticipates when it will cross the 12 o'clock position, it's almost impossible not to do this. Bob. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted December 12, 2009 Share #156 Posted December 12, 2009 Bob - from the point of view of getting a precise numerical measurement, I see your point. From the point of view of figuring out which camera will fire fastest once you decide to press the button (whether based on anticipation or immediate reaction), I think it is a fair relative test. I.E., I wouldn't write a spec sheet for the M8 or M9 or RD-1 claiming a shutter lag of "x" based on this test, but I would say with confidence that camera A's shutter responds 10 or 30 milliseconds faster or slower than camera B. In the real world we do anticipate things happening - we see the decisive moment developing or the person walking into the frame or the gesture beginning. Anticipation skill is what a good street photographer or photojournalist uses - the camera's capabilities being just another link in the chain. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhabedi Posted December 12, 2009 Share #157 Posted December 12, 2009 Any shutterlag there might be - I would call it similar or slightly less than the M8- is utterly irrelevant in any conceivable form of photography. If this bothers you, you are photographing rifle bullets penetrating lightbulbs. Jaap, you are certainly an experienced photographer and a devoted Leica user, but your tendency to flatly deny any evidence that the digital Leicas are anything less than perfect is sometimes simply a bit too much. We had this discussion about the relevance of the shutter lag before. A crowded scene where lots of subjects move quickly, especially some that are very near to your camera, is something where Ms typically excel - and in these cases a tenth of a second does make a difference. I can easily point out several famous photographs taken with Leicas which would look significantly different had they been taken 0.1 seconds later. Maybe it doesn't matter for the pictures you take, but for some it might. Nikon has managed to get the time for the sensor refresh down to a third of what Leica currently needs. I'm sure Leica is working on this, too. And if they'll eventually release an M9.2 or M10 which has a shutter lag of 25ms instead of 100ms, you'll buy it and tell us how much better it is than the M9 (like you're now telling us how much better the M9 is than the M8). Until then you'll defend your M9 like a lion mother defends her babies (like you previously defended the M8)... Don't get me wrong. I have an M8.2 and there's nothing wrong with it, I like it and wouldn't want to have a Japanese dSLR instead. And I might even buy the M9 in the future. That doesn't prevent me from thinking about how these cameras could be improved, though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
noah_addis Posted December 12, 2009 Share #158 Posted December 12, 2009 I tried this test once and like Bob said, after a few frames I was compensating for any delay in the finger-shutter-release system. All my test frames showed little delay. In practice, I haven't noticed any problems with a shutter delay on the M9. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicoleica Posted December 12, 2009 Share #159 Posted December 12, 2009 I'm sure that somebody will find reams of evidence to prove that I'm talking total twaddle, but to my mind it seems that there is probably more delay between the eye registering an event, and the finger actually pressing the shutter release, than any delay inside the camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhabedi Posted December 12, 2009 Share #160 Posted December 12, 2009 I'm sure that somebody will find reams of evidence to prove that I'm talking total twaddle, but to my mind it seems that there is probably more delay between the eye registering an event, and the finger actually pressing the shutter release, than any delay inside the camera. It gets worse with age, unfortunately... The most important point, though, is that these two "lags" add up - it's not that one compensates the other. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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