S2 is a Dream

[tashley]

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Now Tim--this is my OTHER perfect 35 Lux--a 35 R Lux And unfortunately it just doesn't work on the Canons...

 

(More importantly, beer is still on me when you get over the pond!)

 

Phew on both fronts!

 

;-)

[haribo]

I sure did, and thought it funny as hell....... IT BEING RELEASED SOON! and this is where they are!!!!!!

 

WHY write a glowing review if something is not ready to be reviewed. Go back to his M8 review and it will explain all. Seriously, not bashing, just look at the history!!!

 

I don't care if this was using Brownie glass, it should look NO where near this and SHOULD NOT be being reviewed. HOW STUPID do they think we are?????????

It never stops. I'm sorry, I'll call it like I see it, I don't play into the nicey nicey review crowd, pat 'em on the back, good job...." after what happened with the M8 Review. A LOT OF GOOD people lost a LOT of money because of that and were basically looked at as disposable lambs......

I don't mean anyone here disrespect, but I don't follow the crowd because it's good manners to do so, this is plain unreal!!!!

 

Dude, I think you got some serious issues here. Maybe time to consult a psychiatrist.

Otherwise you wouldn't be so blinded by your arrogance and read MR's apology about the M8 thing. At the time he did contact Leica about the IR problems and was told by Leica they knew about it and were in the process of fixing it. That's why he decided not to make a fuss about it when it will be soon a no-issue at all.

 

So, if you want to bitch at somebody or discredit their reputation, you should complain to Leica for blatantly lying about the issue, to Mr. Reichman as well as to the public.

 

Nuff said.

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[mwilliamsphotography]

IMO, making a decision about a camera like the S2 is not easy. I have been struggling with it for months now.

 

David F did get one into my hands for a morning of shooting around a resort I was staying at in St, Pete Beach FL. I did around 170 shots to my own CF in various lighting conditions both indoors and out, as well as a few shots with the SF58 flash mounted. All ISOs were used.

 

Without a doubt, one needs to actually use the S2 in hand and in conditions you'd use a camera like this ... not just a few shots in an exhibition hall. This camera is unique, so it is not easy to place it just based on previous experiences. However, previous experiences are how we form our opinions about what we like and don't in terms of image qualities, (note I say "Image Qualities", not "Image Quality.").

 

Comparing it to other Medium Format Digital cameras is also difficult ... the latest cameras from both Hasselblad and Phase One/Mamiya have moved forward but aren't readily available for testing, at least the H4D isn't yet.

IMO, those used to shooting MFD are less likely to be overwhelmingly impressed with the S2 images ... I've extensively shot digital with a Contax 645, a Hasselblad V and CFV back, a Mamiya AFD-II with Apus 75s, and a range of H cameras up to and including my current H3D-II/39.

 

When you have a MFD system and use it's modular features, (which is very often one other reason photographers move to MFD), it is difficult to reconcile the loss of those features. Not to mention that the cost to swap out systems is staggering .... nothing like changing from Canon to Nikon or Nikon to Canon. We are talking very serious coin here even for successful professionals.

 

For those that see the S2 as their next step up from 35mm DSLRs while maintaining the form factor they prefer, the S2 does offer IQ like nothing currently out there. Even if DSLRs go to 35 meg, he S2 sensor is still bigger. Yet, many of the features that endear 35mm DSLRs to their users are not there with the S2. Perhaps why people yearn for an R10 (?).

 

So, in the end, this is what I term a "Crossover" camera ... unique unto itself, neither fish nor fowl ... and will appeal to a certain group of shooters as no other camera can. If there are enough of those photographers the S2 will succeed. Only Leica knows how many they actually need.

 

My heart wants one, but my brain tells me otherwise. In the end, my eyes are the boss of both my heart and my brain ... LOL!.

 

My eyes told me no.

 

-Marc

[Gentleman Villain]

 

So, in the end, this is what I term a "Crossover" camera ... unique unto itself, neither fish nor fowl ... and will appeal to a certain group of shooters as no other camera can. If there are enough of those photographers the S2 will succeed. Only Leica knows how many they actually need.

 

My heart wants one, but my brain tells me otherwise. In the end, my eyes are the boss of both my heart and my brain ... LOL!.

 

My eyes told me no.

 

-Marc

 

I agree with you about the crossover camera. It's a crossover in the sense that it is integrated like a 35mm DSLR yet fits in the MF category.

 

From my perspective, and others are certainly free to disagree, I think that the customer base in the high end medium format world can be split into essentially 2 categories. The first category is modular and the second category is integrated. The vast majority of medium format users will probably prefer to own a modular system. By modular, I mean that they will probably want the freedom to use any back they want on any camera they want, with any lenses that they want. Modular people want freedom. They want to use multiple brands, the don't necessarily want to be chained to a single brand. So a modular person might have a single digital back, but he could have multiple camera and lens systems. Maybe he would have a tech camera for perspective control and 645 for hand-held. Maybe he'd like to change his mind and switch camera systems altogether but continue to use the same back. Basically, the modular folks want freedom.

 

The next category is integrated...I think that this is where the S2 fits in. Integrated users want a simple package where all of the pieces are designed specifically to work together. They don't want to be bothered by the small problems that inevitably come up (at the strangest times) with modular systems. Modular systems generally have quirks depending on the combination of equipment and they aren't often discovered until AFTER the purchase has been made. But an integrated system helps to eliminate the possiblity of strange quirks. There's a better chance that any quirks will already be known and dealt with up-front since more people will experience the same quirks at the same time. An integrated system trades a bit of freedom for the promise of consistency and less surprises. Basically, all users are in the same-boat so they will have similar demands and their collective needs will probably be better addressed as a group rather than as individuals if they were in a modular system.

 

I have never purchased a MF system for my business because I never felt good about the way that the components integrate together on the current MF systems. I simply don't like the fact that most of the MF systems are burdened by pleasing legacy users. If Leica can hold on for 5-10 years...Then it can carve a niche market out of the MF crowd that wants integration, doesn't mind the price and isn't burdened by legacy. I think that this will be a smaller market than the MF users that want the freedom of modularity, but I think that the integrated crowd will be loyal and strong even if it's smaller.

 

The opinion of the S2 is interesting. First, there are the people that simply don't understand MF and foolishly think that their 35mm can do the same thing. Those people aren't worth considering because they just don't want medium format in the first place. The next critics are legacy MF users that already have tons of money invested in previous systems. These people are difficult or even impossible to please because they don't want to have to start over from scratch and they've usually had a bad experience in the past. They generally want to continue with their legacy gear and are hoping (sometimes beyond reason) that solutions will arise that allow them to do that. Then there are the people that want to purchase a MF system for the very first time but are concerned about price. These people aren't burdened by legacy but they are price shoppers, therefore they will never be S2 customers because they're final decision will most likely be made by entry level pricing. Finally, there are the MF people that aren't burdened by legacy and are not concerned with price. These people will most likely make their final decisions based on modularity vs integration. If they want modularity, they will probably lean towards the top end of phase,leaf,mamiya,alpa,arca swiss etc. If they want integration, then they'll probably lean towards the S2. A lot of this can change in the next 5-10 years but that's basically how it works out right now. But in the end, it may just come down to lenses. The only way to shoot MF with Leica lenses is to use an S2. Some people might have a preference for Leica that is so strong that they'll put all other considerations aside just to use Leica glass. In the end, lenses are the main reason that I plan to become an S2 customer.

Edited December 6, 2009 by Gentleman Villain
typo

[mwilliamsphotography]

I think you may misunderstand the concept of being modular as being mutually exclusive of being integrated.

 

The Hasselblad H camera became completely integrated as of the H3D-II ... all components are linked together in the same manner as the S2 ... in fact more so because of the "integrated" software. The H4 now takes that a step further with "True Focus" for off-center AF, which would be impossible without that level of integration.

 

Like the H3D-II and H4, the latest Phase One/Mamiya camera is now integrated and no longer can take a film back.

 

Modular in this context means the components can be removed and replaced, as well as accessory components can be used. Like a waist level finder on the Hasselbald H cameras ... and the back can be removed to use on a view camera or a tech field camera. Versatility, as well as integrated functionality.

 

IMO, you are right about the cost factors. The expense is breathtakingly high to switch. Not only is the S2 and lenses (with pro warranty) quite high, the losses from selling current gear has to be factored in. Still, I believe people would do it IF there was a very clear difference in IQ .... which in this lofty category is really difficult to do.

[marcusperkins]

Also, the S2 is only 50% larger than 35mm. If one want's a truly MF look, why go the Leica route? Why spend all that money to effectively get a half frame MF system?

 

There is not a massive difference between the look of the S2 and a top end Canon in the same way there is between a Hasselblad and a Canon. So why spend such a huge sum (and we are talking massive amounts of money) for even a basic set up.

 

I think most pros will go for a Phase/Hasselblad system with a Canon or Nikon for the more fluid work - that lot together will probably cost you no more than just the S2 system alone.

 

As good as Leica glass is, and it is brilliant, the advantage is mostly gone once the job gets to the reproduction stage. Most working pros know that.

 

The Leica is too highly priced for the majority of business minded pros, but that's not to say they can't afford it. It's a £10,000 camera at most, but not £17,000 - and it will be out of date within 24 months from a sensor and speed point of view. If you can get away with a half frame MF, then you can probably get by with 35mm.

 

Updating a back is far more efficient, and makes perfect sense in this world of constant change and innovation.

[mwilliamsphotography]

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That's a pretty good synopsis Marcus. Exactly the thought process I had to go through for my next move in MF digital gear for professional applications.

 

That aside, I cannot say how much I wanted to make the S2 part of my gear box, and sold a boat load of legacy equipment to get ready for it. The S2 is a terrific camera, and with some firmware tweaks will only get better.

 

As much as I am an advocate of Medium Format digital for IQ, I have to admit that 35mm DSLRs have inched up on the lower end MFD systems to the point that the IQ distinction has been blurred more than in the past ... not that 35mm has gotten there yet, but 35 meg DSLRs are looming. Even with a larger sensor in the MF cameras, one has to weigh the other "fluidity" factors and take into account real world applications.

 

Make no mistake, the S2 IQ still clearly separates itself from ANY 35mm DSLR, but not to the degree one would hope for at those prices IMHO.

 

So, for a lot less money I can upgrade my H3D-II/39 to a H4D/60, and clearly distance the IQ from any DSLR ... now, and for the foreseeable future. No blurred lines between the two "Horses For Courses".

 

-Marc

[plevyadophy]

I agree with you about the crossover camera. It's a crossover in the sense that it is integrated like a 35mm DSLR yet fits in the MF category.

 

From my perspective, and others are certainly free to disagree, I think that the customer base in the high end medium format world can be split into essentially 2 categories. The first category is modular and the second category is integrated. The vast majority of medium format users will probably prefer to own a modular system. By modular, I mean that they will probably want the freedom to use any back they want on any camera they want, with any lenses that they want. Modular people want freedom. They want to use multiple brands, the don't necessarily want to be chained to a single brand. So a modular person might have a single digital back, but he could have multiple camera and lens systems. Maybe he would have a tech camera for perspective control and 645 for hand-held. Maybe he'd like to change his mind and switch camera systems altogether but continue to use the same back. Basically, the modular folks want freedom.

 

The next category is integrated...I think that this is where the S2 fits in. Integrated users want a simple package where all of the pieces are designed specifically to work together. They don't want to be bothered by the small problems that inevitably come up (at the strangest times) with modular systems. Modular systems generally have quirks depending on the combination of equipment and they aren't often discovered until AFTER the purchase has been made. But an integrated system helps to eliminate the possiblity of strange quirks. There's a better chance that any quirks will already be known and dealt with up-front since more people will experience the same quirks at the same time. An integrated system trades a bit of freedom for the promise of consistency and less surprises. Basically, all users are in the same-boat so they will have similar demands and their collective needs will probably be better addressed as a group rather than as individuals if they were in a modular system.

 

I have never purchased a MF system for my business because I never felt good about the way that the components integrate together on the current MF systems. I simply don't like the fact that most of the MF systems are burdened by pleasing legacy users. If Leica can hold on for 5-10 years...Then it can carve a niche market out of the MF crowd that wants integration, doesn't mind the price and isn't burdened by legacy. I think that this will be a smaller market than the MF users that want the freedom of modularity, but I think that the integrated crowd will be loyal and strong even if it's smaller.

 

The opinion of the S2 is interesting. First, there are the people that simply don't understand MF and foolishly think that their 35mm can do the same thing. Those people aren't worth considering because they just don't want medium format in the first place. The next critics are legacy MF users that already have tons of money invested in previous systems. These people are difficult or even impossible to please because they don't want to have to start over from scratch and they've usually had a bad experience in the past. They generally want to continue with their legacy gear and are hoping (sometimes beyond reason) that solutions will arise that allow them to do that. Then there are the people that want to purchase a MF system for the very first time but are concerned about price. These people aren't burdened by legacy but they are price shoppers, therefore they will never be S2 customers because they're final decision will most likely be made by entry level pricing. Finally, there are the MF people that aren't burdened by legacy and are not concerned with price. These people will most likely make their final decisions based on modularity vs integration. If they want modularity, they will probably lean towards the top end of phase,leaf,mamiya,alpa,arca swiss etc. If they want integration, then they'll probably lean towards the S2. A lot of this can change in the next 5-10 years but that's basically how it works out right now. But in the end, it may just come down to lenses. The only way to shoot MF with Leica lenses is to use an S2. Some people might have a preference for Leica that is so strong that they'll put all other considerations aside just to use Leica glass. In the end, lenses are the main reason that I plan to become an S2 customer.

 

Excellent analysis.

 

But I think you have missed out another group of peeps, of which I am one and I met at least two others at an S2 Studio Day on Saturday in London. That is folks who aren't tied to any medium format system, would prefer modularity but more than anything simply love the form factor and compactness and lightness of the S2, but are sitting on the fence because the S2 lacks some creature comforts that not only are we used to from high end 35mm DSLRs but expected to see in this premium product e.g. dust removal/anti-dust system, higher resolution LCD, live-view (even if only for 30 seconds like on the Fuji S3, or was it S5?) so as to assist in macro and tilt-and-shift work. This group is ripe for picking by Leica. The S2 has the potential, price notwithstanding, to persuade a large group of folks to completely by-pass 35mm format cams unless they reallly need super high ISO and super high framerate shooting.

 

Regards,

[Gentleman Villain]

Excellent analysis.

 

But I think you have missed out another group of peeps, of which I am one and I met at least two others at an S2 Studio Day on Saturday in London. That is folks who aren't tied to any medium format system, would prefer modularity but more than anything simply love the form factor and compactness and lightness of the S2, but are sitting on the fence because the S2 lacks some creature comforts that not only are we used to from high end 35mm DSLRs but expected to see in this premium product e.g. dust removal/anti-dust system, higher resolution LCD, live-view (even if only for 30 seconds like on the Fuji S3, or was it S5?) so as to assist in macro and tilt-and-shift work. This group is ripe for picking by Leica. The S2 has the potential, price notwithstanding, to persuade a large group of folks to completely by-pass 35mm format cams unless they reallly need super high ISO and super high framerate shooting.

 

Regards,

 

Those are great suggestions and hopefully they will be addressed in the future. You sound like a potential 2nd or 3rd generation S2 customer. That's really good news from Leica's point of view. A lot of criticisms regarding the S2 tend to come from the perspective of those that don't really understand the camera is about and probably won't ever be customers. However, your suggestions are very good and seem to keep in-line with the direction I'd foresee the S2 taking in the future. Personally, I'm ready to be an early adopter. But I agree with your comments and would love to see some of the suggestions taken into consideration for the 2nd or 3rd generation of the camera system (especially when it comes to tilt/shift work)

Edited December 17, 2009 by Gentleman Villain
typo