tashley Posted October 13, 2009 Share #81 Posted October 13, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) It doesn't have to be a manual focus camera; it just has to accept manual focus R glass I don't even care if it's an R body. I actually want a cut down 35mm FF S2, please, that's compatible with R glass Jamie, I have one. It has exactly the same resolution as the M9 (though with a few more pixels) and is small, light, partly weather sealed and shoots 1080p video... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 Hi tashley, Take a look here S2 is a Dream. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
thephotofather Posted November 30, 2009 Share #82 Posted November 30, 2009 Let me say I'm sorry in advance..... Just read the review over at the LLandscape. ", but otherwise it has my unreserved recommendation." First of all, did you guys see the same thing I did at over ISO 320???? holy cow. Nasty.. And secondly, after Michales' wonderful job with reviewing the orig M8 and hold back so much info that caused so many of us pain and grief, I would not buy a single thing that his site nor he advised to. Not even a Bike tire..... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted November 30, 2009 Share #83 Posted November 30, 2009 (edited) First of all, did you guys see the same thing I did at over ISO 320???? holy cow. Nasty.. Did you also read where MR stated that the S2 firmware is not final and that one should not pay much attention to the high-ISO noise performance before production firmware is available? Jamie, I have one. It has exactly the same resolution as the M9 (though with a few more pixels) and is small, light, partly weather sealed and shoots 1080p video... and marginally compatible with R glass. Edited November 30, 2009 by wildlightphoto Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thephotofather Posted November 30, 2009 Share #84 Posted November 30, 2009 Did you also read where MR stated that the S2 firmware is not final and that one should not pay much attention to the high-ISO noise performance before production firmware is available and marginally compatible with R glass. I sure did, and thought it funny as hell....... IT BEING RELEASED SOON! and this is where they are!!!!!! WHY write a glowing review if something is not ready to be reviewed. Go back to his M8 review and it will explain all. Seriously, not bashing, just look at the history!!! I don't care if this was using Brownie glass, it should look NO where near this and SHOULD NOT be being reviewed. HOW STUPID do they think we are????????? It never stops. I'm sorry, I'll call it like I see it, I don't play into the nicey nicey review crowd, pat 'em on the back, good job...." after what happened with the M8 Review. A LOT OF GOOD people lost a LOT of money because of that and were basically looked at as disposable lambs...... I don't mean anyone here disrespect, but I don't follow the crowd because it's good manners to do so, this is plain unreal!!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted November 30, 2009 Share #85 Posted November 30, 2009 I sure did, and thought it funny as hell....... IT BEING RELEASED SOON! and this is where they are!!!!!! WHY write a glowing review if something is not ready to be reviewed. Go back to his M8 review and it will explain all. Seriously, not bashing, just look at the history!!! I don't care if this was using Brownie glass, it should look NO where near this and SHOULD NOT be being reviewed. HOW STUPID do they think we are????????? It never stops. I'm sorry, I'll call it like I see it, I don't play into the nicey nicey review crowd, pat 'em on the back, good job...." after what happened with the M8 Review. A LOT OF GOOD people lost a LOT of money because of that and were basically looked at as disposable lambs...... I don't mean anyone here disrespect, but I don't follow the crowd because it's good manners to do so, this is plain unreal!!!! O PhotoFather, why don't you tell us how you really feel. I don't see this as a glowing review. MR points out several performance issues along with the features he likes. I take it you were an early M8 purchaser? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
markowich Posted November 30, 2009 Share #86 Posted November 30, 2009 O PhotoFather, why don't you tell us how you really feel. I don't see this as a glowing review. MR points out several performance issues along with the features he likes. I take it you were an early M8 purchaser? MR does pretty well as a camera-feature tester, but i do not take his comments on IQ seriously. peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted November 30, 2009 Share #87 Posted November 30, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) As to the abandoned R line, I do think that with '35mm size' cameras, the SLR is on its last legs. It is just a question of time before we have sensors and electronic viewfinders with enough resolution and a fast enough refresh rate to make the flapping mirror obsolete. The real successor to the present Nikon and Canon monsters, and the dear departed R, will be something like a next-two-generations super Lumix GH-1. Let us hope it will have some useable manual focusing too. So I think it made sense for Leica to call quits to the R line. It would be a dead end. The all-electronic MF camera is further in the future, hence the S2. The old man from the Age of Glass Plate Negatives Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinA Posted November 30, 2009 Share #88 Posted November 30, 2009 I'll join the list too. That Leica decided to ditch the R10 isn't so much that they couldn't turn a profit on the R10 per se but that they couldn't see that market grow further. After all, they sold about 6000 DMRs in total (if I remember correctly) and as a "compromise" solution I'd say that's a pretty good number. They should be able to sell 15,000-20,000 of a "final run" of fullframe digital Rs which would be pretty good -- if you compare to the 10,000 Ms they sell in a year. I can see the viability. We just have to push harder. In my opinion Leica bet on the wrong horse going for the S2. Earlier this month they had 50 pre-orders. That sounds like a terribly small number to me. I think a digital "R" would do better than Leica imagine, I really believe there are a lot of Photographers fed up with learning "bells and whistles" of the offerings in the market today. Kevin. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted November 30, 2009 Share #89 Posted November 30, 2009 Based on the MR review, I would say Leica still is struggling with the digital age. The tethered performance is but one example. To have a camera that only performs as well as the competition up to ISO 400 but requires a considerable investment in new everything and costs around $7K more than the competition is a formula for failure as I see it. Add to this the cost for backup that a professional requires for remote shoots and I suspect it will make it a non-starter for many. MR's comments about requiring a tripod for most usage sort of negates its handling advantage if any over the 645DF. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted November 30, 2009 Share #90 Posted November 30, 2009 As to the abandoned R line, I do think that with '35mm size' cameras, the SLR is on its last legs. It is just a question of time before we have sensors and electronic viewfinders with enough resolution and a fast enough refresh rate to make the flapping mirror obsolete. The real successor to the present Nikon and Canon monsters, and the dear departed R, will be something like a next-two-generations super Lumix GH-1. Let us hope it will have some useable manual focusing too. So I think it made sense for Leica to call quits to the R line. It would be a dead end. The all-electronic MF camera is further in the future, hence the S2. As much as I was looking forward to an R10, realistically I have to agree with this. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcusperkins Posted November 30, 2009 Share #91 Posted November 30, 2009 For the kind of 'off tripod' work that the S2 should be good at because of its size and handling will be negated because it is 'off tripod'. I doubt there will be a significant quality advantage over a top end Canikon when it comes to the more fluid work. If you are shooting in a studio environment, the tethered performance appears to be terrible - at least in it's current form. Regardless, I'm confident there are enough wealthy photographers to make it pay for Leica, which is great news for us all. However, I just don't see commercial photographers going for it - there is nothing special apart from build quality that sets it apart from anything else available. And in the world of digital, build quality above a certain level is pointless unless the equipment has a 15/20 year life span like an Alpa. Even if a kit (body and lens) cost £10,000, the scope is too limited. It could be many months before all the initially announced lenses are available. It's a commercial photographers nightmare. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thephotofather Posted November 30, 2009 Share #92 Posted November 30, 2009 Regardless, I'm confident there are enough wealthy photographers to make it pay for Leica, which is great news for us all. However, I just don't see commercial photographers going for it - there is nothing special apart from build quality that sets it apart from anything else available. . So your saying that this is Leica's marketing and sales strat? "It's not really a better widget but there are a lot of wealthy photographers out there for profit margins?" I can assure you, that is not a profit margin biz plan that is very substainable I want Leica to succeed at everything they do as they are (or were, not sure yet) a marvel engineering firm in a area I very much enjoy. But I'm pretty flustered about MR's review once again. This time he's played it pretty smart in the disclaimer area, he can always fall back on. This reminds me so much of the new breed of ebay sellers whereas they will sell this crazy expensive techy thingie for much less and at the bottom insert something in the way of: "Because I don't really know how to use this as it's not my profession, it must be sold as is. But it looks great" Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted November 30, 2009 Share #93 Posted November 30, 2009 Jamie, I have one. It has exactly the same resolution as the M9 (though with a few more pixels) and is small, light, partly weather sealed and shoots 1080p video... Hey Tim, yeah, I know; I had a couple too. But they don't accept my 19 Elmarit or my 35 Lux; I don't care about video and honestly I still prefer the colour output of the DMR Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted November 30, 2009 Share #94 Posted November 30, 2009 Based on the MR review, I would say Leica still is struggling with the digital age. The tethered performance is but one example. To have a camera that only performs as well as the competition up to ISO 400 but requires a considerable investment in new everything and costs around $7K more than the competition is a formula for failure as I see it. Add to this the cost for backup that a professional requires for remote shoots and I suspect it will make it a non-starter for many. MR's comments about requiring a tripod for most usage sort of negates its handling advantage if any over the 645DF. And you wonder why they don't release early X1 shots Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted November 30, 2009 Share #95 Posted November 30, 2009 Jamie, I'm not quite sure how my comment above relates to release of version 1.0 camera images since presumably Leica thought they were good enough to go to production. However, if what you are saying is that Leica doesn't know software development well enough to know when they have a camera ready to go to production then your statement makes sense. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tashley Posted November 30, 2009 Share #96 Posted November 30, 2009 Hey Tim, yeah, I know; I had a couple too. But they don't accept my 19 Elmarit or my 35 Lux; I don't care about video and honestly I still prefer the colour output of the DMR Rub that bloody perfect 35 lux of yours in my face again why don't you?! :D:D Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tashley Posted December 1, 2009 Share #97 Posted December 1, 2009 (edited) Based on the MR review, I would say Leica still is struggling with the digital age. The tethered performance is but one example. To have a camera that only performs as well as the competition up to ISO 400 but requires a considerable investment in new everything and costs around $7K more than the competition is a formula for failure as I see it. Add to this the cost for backup that a professional requires for remote shoots and I suspect it will make it a non-starter for many. MR's comments about requiring a tripod for most usage sort of negates its handling advantage if any over the 645DF. Having shot with both Phase (a lot) and S2 (a bit) systems and read MR's review, I disagree with most of what you say. You generally have to use a tripod for any MF system because the sheer resolution of them, and the bigger vibrations caused by larger mirrors and shutters, means that you really do need shutter speeds of three times focal length, at least, unless you are very very stead or get very lucky. IMHO however there is a fair amount less slap and slam with the S2 than with the competition and indeed I did get a higher proportion of very sharp handheld shots when walking around with the S2 than I ever have with the Phase. I would add the caveat that I own the now superseded AFDIII but I have shot with the latest version and regard it as only mildly improved on its predecessor in this regard. But I guess pretty strongly that with a 70mm lens I could get very steady shots on the S2 with a 1/150th and a monopod whereas the Phase setup requires extremely high-end tripods with very very good tripod heads (mine cost well over a thousand pounds and that's just the head...) before you lose the risk of losing shots. This is particularly true at the AFDIII's sympathetic frequency shutter speeds in the 1/15th second range where even MUP and some of the world's finest tripod gear won't guarantee you good results. I suspect this will not be true of the S2. Shooting tethered with a P45+ is theoretically a doddle but in fact it very often just doesn't work, requiring endless restarts of the back and/or Capture One. My morning with the S2 with its beta tethering setup was very smooth if a little slower than Phase/C1 when that setup is working glitch-free. I don't have a P40+ but a P45+ and I can safely say that the S2's performance at 400 and above, even with pre-release firmware, was as good as or better than the P45+ and this is a back that a lot of pros own and might consider switching out of. The main thing is this, though, and it doesn't apply to me: for quite a few studio photographers doing fashion, glamour and portrait, the S2 will win hands-down because it feels so much more refined than a Phamiya setup. There were some very famous photographers indeed at the S2 shoot I attended and one of them, a really huge name, was very taken with the D-Lux 4 rather than the X1 because it 'felt nicer and had a zoom'. When I tried to explain that they had about the same number of pixels but that the D-Lux 4's were less good because smaller, he just looked at me blankly. Some photographers, even really good ones, don't have a gear fetish, they just like stuff that quietly looks and feels nice. The S2 does that and with easily comparable results to the ugly, chunky, dare I say it almost neanderthal Phase setup with its barn-door shutter and 80's style hand-grip full of AA batteries. Let's face it: the Phase backs are amazing, really, and some of the glass is pretty damned good. But the bodies are just plain outdated. And so if you don't need to switch the back out onto a technical camera and if you want something to use in a nice studio in a big city with plenty of backup to hand, the S2 wins just because it feels like a finely crafted artisanal tool. I won't be switching, because I can't quite bring myself to give up my tech camera and because I might be headed towards an even higher resolution back. But I do think quite a few people will.... Edited December 1, 2009 by tashley Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcusperkins Posted December 1, 2009 Share #98 Posted December 1, 2009 The only problem is that it's still not available to buy, and probably won't be until sometime in 2010. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted December 1, 2009 Share #99 Posted December 1, 2009 Rub that bloody perfect 35 lux of yours in my face again why don't you?!:D:D Now Tim--this is my OTHER perfect 35 Lux--a 35 R Lux And unfortunately it just doesn't work on the Canons... (More importantly, beer is still on me when you get over the pond!) Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted December 1, 2009 Share #100 Posted December 1, 2009 (edited) Jamie, I'm not quite sure how my comment above relates to release of version 1.0 camera images since presumably Leica thought they were good enough to go to production. However, if what you are saying is that Leica doesn't know software development well enough to know when they have a camera ready to go to production then your statement makes sense. Leica knows what Leica knows, John, and I won't presume to speak for them. But I know software development for Leica cameras well enough to know that Leica hasn't yet nailed an IQ / noise levels totally right in any 1.00 release of any of their cameras to date, so I'd hesitate making an overall judgement (especially on higher ISO shots) till the "fat lady sings" (or in this case, until production copies of the camera are available and a release-level firmware is available too). You really should read a review more carefully before you comment. What didn't you understand about the LL caveat on the first page: "The body and lenses are final, but the firmware in my review camera (1.0.09) is still a work in progress, and won't be finalized until the camera ships in January." That would seem to indicate that the reviewed images were not produced by production level firmware, wouldn't it? Edited December 1, 2009 by Jamie Roberts Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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