andybarton Posted July 30, 2009 Share #141 Posted July 30, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) But how many sales over the whole US? Or in the whole of Europe? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 30, 2009 Posted July 30, 2009 Hi andybarton, Take a look here S2 available in October / starting price of £15,996. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
leicamr Posted July 30, 2009 Share #142 Posted July 30, 2009 Having owned and used one DMR has always made me smile. Now owning and using the second one is just inducing permanent laugh lines. The R system performance / cost ratio must now appear to be unbeatable to many more people. If I had the money for an S2 system I would buy into it, buy my R system does it all for me. Happy Snapping. Good luck Leica with the S2. Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted July 30, 2009 Share #143 Posted July 30, 2009 As I said: "Realistically, the US ain't what it used to be in the global economy - and is only 5% of the population, so what level of US sales translates into 1,000+ globally? 50? 100? 150?" More accurately, I should have said that North America (US + Mexico + Canada) accounted for 25% of Leica's recent historic marketplace, but I'm sure that has slipped as the BRIC countries have developed market strength. Me personally - I'll get into MF digital when I can get a used Hassy CFV on ebay (or elsewhere) for $2,000. But I don't pretend that I and the people I know are a valid measure of a global market. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanJW Posted July 31, 2009 Share #144 Posted July 31, 2009 I think Leica has miscalculated, but then again I am just an amateur. I can "justify" an M8, which is quite expensive because (i) I've done well enough so that buying one was within my means (did not deprive my family of anything more important); (ii) it gives me great pleasure; (iii) produces really nice images. I don't know how many other hobbyists are out there with M8's but I suspect there are quite a few. But the S2 is in a completely different category. Guy mentioned ROI issues for pros. For us amateurs there is an investment but no return at all, so this would have to be bought purely for pleasure. I;ve done well, but not that well. For me, no S2 unless I win the lottery. Of course there was that email about a long lost relative who died in Malaysia and left me $18,000,000 . . . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
R10dreamer Posted July 31, 2009 Share #145 Posted July 31, 2009 I don't care what kool aid Earhardt is talking. They are trying to compete in a the medium format market with a smaller sensor an requiring buyers to buy into a whole system with a minimum cost of $30,000 for camera and one lens. On top of that they insult us all by saying that if we spend a little more money we will get excellent service. WTF. That is one of the more arrogant things I have ever heard a company market. What, $30,000 isn't enough to get good service. Sometimes in life people get too secluded and form ideas based on their own reality that don't fly in the world where other people live. Leica will sell some cameras. But 1 year from now every other company will have either surpassed or comes so close to their specs that they pricing will look even more ridiculous. The digital age is not the film age. Obsolescents is just around the corner and any company that tries to sell a 5 year body in a 3 year world is going to get lost if they price their 5 year body as if it is a lifetime investment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgcd Posted July 31, 2009 Share #146 Posted July 31, 2009 ...On top of that they insult us all by saying that if we spend a little more money we will get excellent service. WTF. That is one of the more arrogant things I have ever heard a company market. What, $30,000 isn't enough to get good service. I have to admit I was also perplexed by that move. I mean at $23,995 shouldn't the S2 already include sapphire glass and platinum service? Seriously. The digital age is not the film age. Obsolescents is just around the corner and any company that tries to sell a 5 year body in a 3 year world is going to get lost if they price their 5 year body as if it is a lifetime investment. That may just be the issue, is the S2 so good that it may outlast all others in terms of image quality and durability? A paradigm shift in that sense? I'm open to being convinced on that point, but even then the price is incredibly steep for the body. Anyway, still waiting on the actual specs... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted July 31, 2009 Share #147 Posted July 31, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Here's one professional photographer who may not have the S2 on her shopping list right now... Annie Leibovitz sued against value of entire collection - Telegraph Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lxlim Posted July 31, 2009 Share #148 Posted July 31, 2009 ... That may just be the issue, is the S2 so good that it may outlast all others in terms of image quality and durability? A paradigm shift in that sense? I'm open to being convinced on that point, but even then the price is incredibly steep for the body. Anyway, still waiting on the actual specs... Personally it is that point you made that I am willing to consider the S2 as a camera to work with till retirement. The quality I getting from my M8 and Canon 1DmkIII is already higher than what is reproducible on print and web where my clients need. An S2 is likely to be good enough for my market's needs for the next 10-15 years. With that in mind, is an investment in the S2 excessive over a 10 - 15 year stretch? In Singapore, a mid ranged car is still about twice the cost of the S2 plus 3 lenses (not the exotic ones whose prices are yet unnamed). That said, I will not be in the market for an S2 for another two years at least. By then the MF game should be about played out. In the film days, I fully expected my Sinar C2+APO Macro Sironar 210mm to last for 30 years until my retirement. Unfortunately, the market for it did not exist for me after the Asian economic crisis. Perhaps it is time for the paradigm to shift again now that digital has stabilised its quality. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
haribo Posted July 31, 2009 Share #149 Posted July 31, 2009 That may just be the issue, is the S2 so good that it may outlast all others in terms of image quality and durability? A paradigm shift in that sense? I'm open to being convinced on that point, but even then the price is incredibly steep for the body. Anyway, still waiting on the actual specs... In the MF world the S2 is in terms of sensor size on the low end of the totem pole. That alone is already enough to guaranty it won't outlast anything. Also, in opposite to digital backs I doubt there will be any upgrade programs available. (Phase owner can turn in their backs for a way reduced price when upgrading. Hasselblad offers this only for the 50 to 60MP switch. Although promised, they canceled this option for all 39MP back owners...) Anyhow, in Leica's case it won't be just about switching backs when upgrading. It very likely means buying a new body due to limited space for a new sensor. The lenses will have a longer life cycle. keep in mind though, that in case there is at some point in time a larger sensor upgrade available, they might not fit the then new requirements anymore. Who knows... Again, as i said earlier the S2 is a tweener product. Leica brilliantly created this new market niche. Positioning the price point above the most expensive DSLR and below the MF sector the S2 would have been very likely a winner. People probably wouldn't bother much about the not yet tried, tested and true state of this new system because the S2 "offers" (we will find out about that sooner or later) many things that are in fact wrong with the MF market. I truly believe,the S2 was ...heck the thing is not even available and i'm already using past tense... was an incredible opportunity. However, Leica's arrogance and "It must be perfect" (read: over the top) thinking got in the way and they completely missed the boat. By positioning the camera way above the mid range of MF cameras they not only managed to shut the door to the niche market they created for themselves but worse, committed most likely business suicide. The fact that Leica has to defend themselves on the very same day they announced their prices, speaks volumes. PS: In case somebody is wondering, the usual reason of high R&D costs doesn't even remotely apply this time. This time around high R&D costs were simply a necessity in order to catch up with the competition and not because of reinventing the wheel. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentleman Villain Posted July 31, 2009 Share #150 Posted July 31, 2009 it's pathetic...what a bunch of whiners Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerndReini Posted July 31, 2009 Share #151 Posted July 31, 2009 Alright, here's the deal on buying gear as a professional: you only buy what makes you money, otherwise you're not running a profitable business. When the clients ask for a Leica S2 and pay me a good rental every time I use it, I'll buy an S2. Professionals need to make a profit. I can buy myself an expensive toy and play with it all I want, but for a profit, I'll buy what the client demands and pays for. I know a lot of professionals who don't own their gear. They hire an assistant and rent whatever they need for a specific job. And they will buy what they rent a lot and can get accessories for when they need it. I know a lot of photographers who own a set of Hasselblad lenses and a camera because they can easily rent a back for it. making an investment in a whole new system that does not have wide ranging support from rental houses is a huge risk and not one very many smart professionals will be willing to take. At the announced price, Leica are pricing themselves out of the hobbyist market and this seems like a bad move to me. I hope I'm wrong, but this is bad news. If the S2 was $10,000, I would seriously consider buying one, and so would many other Leica enthusiasts that have the luxury of not having to generate income with the camera. At $20,000, I'm out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgcd Posted July 31, 2009 Share #152 Posted July 31, 2009 In the MF world the S2 is in terms of sensor size on the low end of the totem pole. That alone is already enough to guaranty it won't outlast anything. Also, in opposite to digital backs I doubt there will be any upgrade programs available. (Phase owner can turn in their backs for a way reduced price when upgrading. Hasselblad offers this only for the 50 to 60MP switch. Although promised, they canceled this option for all 39MP back owners...) snipped... Again, as i said earlier the S2 is a tweener product. Leica brilliantly created this new market niche. Positioning the price point above the most expensive DSLR and below the MF sector the S2 would have been very likely a winner. People probably wouldn't bother much about the not yet tried, tested and true state of this new system because the S2 "offers" (we will find out about that sooner or later) many things that are in fact wrong with the MF market. I truly believe,the S2 was ...heck the thing is not even available and i'm already using past tense... was an incredible opportunity. However, Leica's arrogance and "It must be perfect" (read: over the top) thinking got in the way and they completely missed the boat. By positioning the camera way above the mid range of MF cameras they not only managed to shut the door to the niche market they created for themselves but worse, committed most likely business suicide. The fact that Leica has to defend themselves on the very same day they announced their prices, speaks volumes.... (snipped) I've been arguing that same positioning for the S2 from the start, a lot of us were actually. But, as you may have noticed Leica usually carries on in the manner it sees fit. That however, was not my point here. Until I get to see the specs and actually try out the camera (hopefully Leica will follow through soon...) I will reserve judgement on the S2's performance. I can't shake the feeling that Leica has something up its sleeve with respect to the S2's performance, this thing is built like a tank meant to last a very long time. They were never geniuses when it came to marketing or positioning though... but, notwithstanding urban legends, technologically Leica is no slouch... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted July 31, 2009 Share #153 Posted July 31, 2009 Personally it is that point you made that I am willing to consider the S2 as a camera to work with till retirement. The quality I getting from my M8 and Canon 1DmkIII is already higher than what is reproducible on print and web where my clients need. An S2 is likely to be good enough for my market's needs for the next 10-15 years. With that in mind, is an investment in the S2 excessive over a 10 - 15 year stretch? In Singapore, a mid ranged car is still about twice the cost of the S2 plus 3 lenses (not the exotic ones whose prices are yet unnamed)... I'm not sure what you are getting at. If an M8 and Canon serve your clients' needs, then why would you want an S2? As for the "exotic" lenses that have yet to be released. I don't see them as especially exotic, but they are sure to be priced high. They compare in 35mm format to a 20mm, a 24 TS, a slow 24-72 zoom, and a fairly slow 280mm. The problem with the cost is not that you can't justify it over 15 years. It is that it will be surpassed by much less expensive options long before that. At one time a 6 megapixel Kodak DSLR cost $30,000. That got surpassed even by the first cheap Canon Digital Rebel years ago. And a $30,000 Phase One scanning back was also a viable choice for some things. Not today. When you buy an S2 or any MF system, you give up speed, versatility, and affordability in the pursuit of a bit more resolution - Only if the camera is accurately focused and used in situations that will produce minimum motion blur and maximum sharpness. And the S2 is not very versatile with just 4 lenses offered. That may or may not be a reasonable trade-off now. As the resolution of 35mm increases, there may be little reason to use a 37megapixel S2. Here's a test that everyone can make before buying an S2. Once some full res samples are released, print them to a fairly large size, say 16x20. Then scale the files to half size and reprint them and see how much detail you lose. Correction for image below - it was 5616 pixels high not wide. (Then scaled to 4000 pixels high and back to 5616 high.) This is a resolution/file size comparison test, not a test of maximum possible camera resolution. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/92029-s2-available-in-october-starting-price-of-%C2%A315996/?do=findComment&comment=978448'>More sharing options...
pierovitch Posted July 31, 2009 Share #154 Posted July 31, 2009 I might have to wait for the Lumix version. Seriously, the price premium is not that relevant if you want the best quality and it suits your needs. It is a boutique market. An R10 would not be much cheaper with a custom low volume chip and fitting it in a smaller package then interfacing the electronics with old lenses it might have even cost more. If Hasselblad beat it by a significant margin in the reviews it might be a problem. If you need one as your prime business tool then you probably have the clients who demand and can afford the best. As for wealthy amateurs its a really nice new toy to play with. Cheers Pierre Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 31, 2009 Share #155 Posted July 31, 2009 Just to clarify: Stefan Daniels' projection, as quoted in the summary of the May forum visit, was - a double-digit percentage of 10,000 units PER YEAR. Whether you agree that the MF digital market is 10,000 cameras per year or not is a fair question - but that was the precise wording reported. So Leica's projections are for at least 1,000 S2s per year, unless Daniels was misquoted. As to the price - there were naysayers who were sure it would be $28,000-30,000 per body (go back and read the threads) and dreamers who thought it would be $12,000. Seems like the reality falls in the middle of the range. The US has generally been about 25% of the Leica market - so that means 250 cameras a year in the US. Realistically, the US ain't what it used to be in the global economy - and is only 5% of the population, so what level of US sales translates into 1,000+ globally? 50? 100? 150? Put another way - a goal of 1000 cameras a year is one camera for every 7,000,000 people. That means Leica is aiming for one sale in Hong Kong, 2.5 sales in NYC, 2 cameras in Shanghai, 1.5 sales in Tokyo (or 15 in Japan overall), 2 in Mumbai....you get the picture. Throw in a few Russian Gaz-ocrats or Bollywood producers, and I don't see 1000 units year being a reach. Sure the average Leicaflex SL or R4 user isn't going to switch (we haven't heard Doug weigh in yet) - but so what? Put yet another way - the average person knows about 10,000 people over their lifetime - so take everyone you've ever known, and then find 700 other people who have no mutual acquaintances with you of any kind, and take everyone they've ever known in their life - and Leica needs to make just one sale in that whole group. Having been there, I interpreted his words differently. Actually he did not use the words "per year" or "per run". To me it was quite clear that he was talking about the whole run. Just think about it: If we accept the figure of 10.000, and consider a camera of this type can expect a production run of six years, at 2000 per year that would mean that Leica would be expecting to sell 20% more cameras than the whole market.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 31, 2009 Share #156 Posted July 31, 2009 I'm not sure it's the Guy Mancusos of the world who'll be buying these things -- I think it's more like the JAAPs. Well, not this Jaap. Even if I could afford the system - and I can assure you I cannot- it fits my style of photography in no way. And it would fit Guy's style to a T I would think. His position is clear: not the quality of the system is leading, but the business decision. I get the impression that there is a school of thought on this forum that maintains that the S2 system must be a profit-maker within months. The statements by Leica show a different pattern - A flagship camera and a technology platform - I am in this for the long run - and many others. If the exposure this system will generate sells more M9 cameras, or even Panaleicas, the goal is reached. It itself will do fine if it partially recovers some of the R&D costs. It is not unthinkable if a pro, looking at the S2 and deciding against it, suddenly realizes that the M9 will be excellent for some other job. Plus the free advertising. The high end of the consumer market is where Leica sells. So it may well be that an advanced amateur will be pointed towards Leica by one of the many publications the S2 will generate. The M9 will use S2 technology, btw, for the sensor, for the electronics. That is where the rest of R&D will be recovered. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted July 31, 2009 Share #157 Posted July 31, 2009 it's pathetic...what a bunch of whiners I think the disappointment and frustration being expressed is perfectly natural. Leica has chosen to pitch the price of a new system, which many of us here on this forum might have liked to buy, at a level where the vast majority of us cannot even contemplate ever getting it. If they had set the price of the body lower and the price of the lenses higher, I might have considered getting a body and 70mm lens to begin with and only adding other lenses as and when funds permitted. Now for me, if I decide I really need an MF-ish camera in addition to my M8, it is plan B. Buy a little used Contax 645 outfit and a refurbished digital back. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapp Posted July 31, 2009 Share #158 Posted July 31, 2009 Here's a test that everyone can make before buying an S2. Once some full res samples are released, print them to a fairly large size, say 16x20. Then scale the files to half size and reprint them and see how much detail you lose. How do you now that the 4000 pixel cameras system has the same resolution as a downsampled image? Your 4000 pixel camera will have different optics, and smaller pixel size. Compare systems and nothing else. Now that we have found out what people think about the pricing, we will probably have to wait for another couple months to get any hard details on the S2. Sure enough this post will see a million replies, but no news will show up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted July 31, 2009 Share #159 Posted July 31, 2009 Ok, folks please read the following PDN article where Christian Erhardt addresses the S2 pricing (Leica's Erhardt Addresses Criticism Over S2's Hefty Price Tag) Cheers, I was really worried before I read that article. Now I'm terrified. Seriously this seems like a scramble, the very worst sort of PR disaster that Leica have on their hands now. Defending a $22k+ price-tag by promising to include Adobe Lightroom? Oh brother. I'm really not qualified to comment - I'm sure a lot of people will point this out - I have never intended to buy (or could afford) or had anything but an academic interest in the S2, and have simply hoped that it'll be the paradigm-shifting camera that Leica promised and sell really well. My personal concerns were always that it was a hubris project, built to show the world what the technicians and engineers at Leica were really capable of, if they were freed from the bounds of legacy systems, and not a really viable financial project. But I had no idea, and still have none, of how well this will actually sell. My hope is that Leica have looked at all the options, weighed the costs and returns and that this is a realistic price. But that interview - the same day as the release of the pricelist - seriously scared the cr@p out of me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pascal_meheut Posted July 31, 2009 Share #160 Posted July 31, 2009 Defending a $22k+ price-tag by promising to include Adobe Lightroom? This is not what he said. He said that the camera was fastest, with a better AF, weather-resistant, with in-body jpeg conversion and tethered shooting from Lightroom which comes with the package. Yet, you may very well consider that this functionnalities are not worth the price but your quoting was inaccurate and biased. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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