Official Leica Statements

[freecitizen]

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Of course, one of the problems with what I just said about using the lens filters in the above post will be when I'm carrying the M8 and my M6 and want to use the same lenses, swapping between bodies.

 

Likely get a colour cast when I put the filtered lens on the M6 with film. Not impossible to correct, but not ideal.

[jrgeoffrion]

Of course, one of the problems with what I just said about using the lens filters in the above post will be when I'm carrying the M8 and my M6 and want to use the same lenses, swapping between bodies.

 

Likely get a colour cast when I put the filtered lens on the M6 with film. Not impossible to correct, but not ideal.

 

You can put an IR cut filter and use it with film without any problem.

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[petermcwerner]

A problem that has not been mentioned at all is non-Leica lenses. I know this is a Leica forum, but many of us are also using VC and other lenses (Cooke in my case). These cannot be coded and I do not want to be forced into spending thousands of $ or EUR to buy the corresponding Leica glass.

 

BTW, The hassle with having to use filters seems unacceptable to me for every nun (or Dinner Jacket - aka tuxedo) that might happen to be in a picture. My M8 arrived yesterday, I have just loaded the battery, but now I feel very much like sending it back to the dealer for a refund.

 

Peter W.

[mike prevette]

I'm pretty sure the coding comment was a lark on leica's part. I can think of no technical reason why the coding would change anything.

_mike

[blatent liar]

Friends

 

I have read silently all of the minutes from many forums with regards to the M8, and this is my first post.

 

My M8 produces great results, and I agree with leica's Edit ABr spokesman, if only on the topic of Raw conversion rendering the finest corrections for a Chip's shortcomings in white balance, at least thus far.

 

The M8 takes great pix, and yes the files are best converted in RAW, to resolve, abate white balance issues in the interim to a Firmware fix.

 

I have no such Banding issues, as mentioned in other post/s., although I have seen the purple band in the poorly composed family portrait, and it is very unsettling.

 

I have not had "Magenta issues in Black rendering as recently as today, however I'll be a monkey's uncle when I do.

 

In the interim, I must state plainly that the M8 in all of it's launce idiosyncracies, is still "really" the only game in town, and my results have been notihing short of stellar.

 

Cheers

 

Mark

[petermcwerner]

Tony,

 

Thank you for publishing the statement.

 

As many have mentioned here before, it sounds rather insulting to people who have spent a lot of money for the M8, bought a couple of lenses to go with it and now hear that they have to invest even more to be able to use the camera as they wish.

 

The tone of the statement suggestst to me that it was perhaps a technical explanation by an engineer who is not really market-oriented and not by a responsible person in the management of Leica.

 

If so, I feel it has now become urgent that Leica management publish an official statement.

 

Cheers

Peter W.

[Guest stevenrk]

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The following comment is *not* based on any official information but I suspect an IR cut filter will work fine whether a lens is coded or not. Earlier this afternoon, I ordered three B+W filters so that I'll have them to shoot a wedding this weekend. The test camera isn't due back until Monday so I'll actually shoot the wedding with two M8 bodies. I bought an M8 with my own cash like many here and there is no way I'm giving it up or sending it back. Never even crossed my mind in fact but that's partly a reflection of how long I've been waiting for a real digital M and how much I like this camera, flaws and all. If I need to mount filters then I'll mount them. I'd prefer a different solution but I'm still gonna use the M8. YMMV, to say the least. I will say again that despite the drawbacks, file quality has been very high for most of the work I've done.

 

The IR cut filters exist, BTW, because several other digital video and still cameras (some by Nikon for example) have had this high sensitivity to IR.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

 

 

Sean, as so many have said, thank you for all the valuable information you've given to us. Both in your reviews and discussion here, a tremendous help and always thoughful and insightful information.

 

As to Leica, reading the statement they gave to you, it seems they were aware of this problem from the start and simply made a choice along the way as they were engineering the camera. They should have informed us before trying to sell the camera. It's one thing to be surprised by a problem that you didn't catch, entirely another to keep it in the pocket until ready to sell filters to patch it. I imagine financial considerations played a significant role since they are a small company and probably needed to just get it out the door. But that's just not good enough.

 

We part ways on holding on to the camera. I've arranged to return mine -- with a very considerate dealer who is completely understanding of the situation.

 

I agree entirely with your assessment of how good a camera this can be/could have been, and how significant it was in bringing Leica level images and color to an RF. Very sadly, it seems as if it is a bit of a pretend camera.

 

Even though I don't agree with your choice to try and figure out a way to live with a professional tool that is limited in its uses and even then requires a patchwork of fixes, recognize that is a very personal choice -- one dependent on many variables. I question whether it's one that enough people will make to keep the company going. And a real solution seems now out of the quesion as it is clear that they would have to reengineer the whole digital process/sensor and make compromises that would likely be even worse.

 

Very sad.

 

Wish you the best on your job this weekend with the Leicas. Will be very interested to hear what you think after that. By the way, from what I'm reading about use of the IR filter, it can only be a partial fix, which is probably why they need to limit it to coded lenses -- think of all the great lenses that are on their way to the bin.

 

The shot I took of the purple RD1 in the other thread is with a summilux 35 ASPH serial no 3962*** so post 2000.

 

Best, Steven

[robertwright]

Actually, at certain angles, it can look really cool like mirror sunglasses.

 

this would be the off angle effects that they might have to correct with software. Light rays coming at extreme angles will be reflected more causing more vingetting, which could then be accounted for.

 

there may also be a slight purple tinge to the filter but that is what is being reflected not what is being passed.

 

I am pretty certain the decision was made to go with the existing IR filter on the sensor because of other image concerns, like CA and fringing etc. If they put a thicker filter on the sensor it would reduce the performance in the corners. that is just the trade for wide open shooting with crispy results.

[LarryK]

The following comment is *not* based on any official information but I suspect an IR cut filter will work fine whether a lens is coded or not. Earlier this afternoon, I ordered three B+W filters so that I'll have them to shoot a wedding this weekend. [cut]The IR cut filters exist, BTW, because several other digital video and still cameras (some by Nikon for example) have had this high sensitivity to IR.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

 

Hello Sean,

Could you tell me which filters you ordered and where you got them? Where did you find the best deal? I never use filters and am not in favor of them, but it looks like I will be forced to use them now. I have the 35mm 1.4 ASPH, the 50m 1.4 ASPH, and the Zeiss 25mm 2.8.

 

After a glorious Saturday in Central Park, taking shots that just amazed me with their color and resolution, I am now singing the "purple" blues after taking a picture of my wife in a black top and seeing, well, purple, of course.

 

Sigh, I'm trying to figure out what to do...

 

Regards,

 

Larry

[devils-advocate]

This is a sad situation, since the M8 produces glorious results in the vast majority of instances. (Indeed, my non-technical mind wonders whether the extended IR sensitivity, which is putting purple-in-the-blacks, might not actually translate into deeper shadow sensitivty and extended effective dynamic range? Correct me if I'm way-off, please.)

 

Thing is, given the uses Leicas are traditionally put to, the 'streaking' problem is unacceptable at any level. Similarly, since this is sold as a colour camera, chronically and severely false colour is equally unacceptable. Since Leica's entire rasion-d'etre is the production of absolutely compromise-free image quality, there is more than a touch of tragic irony involved in their ("just put a filter on it" answer -- most unleicaesque)

 

I just really hope Leica fixes these problems to their users' satisfaction before some American class-action attorney manages to bankrupt them....and I'm (sadly) not kidding. As a very small-volume manufacturer, their profit could easily be wiped-out. They really ought to stop shipping the camera in the US until they work out these issues, which I am confident they will. The problem is that their statements make it clear that they had knowledge of the problems ahead of selling the camera, which sours everyone's impression of the company .

[fotografr]

What happens if I take a candid of a bunch of giggling nuns? They'll look like they've been decked out by Versace.

 

£3000 for an IR camera? This is loopy!

 

Now, THAT was funny!!

[sean_reid]

A problem that has not been mentioned at all is non-Leica lenses. I know this is a Leica forum, but many of us are also using VC and other lenses (Cooke in my case). These cannot be coded and I do not want to be forced into spending thousands of $ or EUR to buy the corresponding Leica glass.

 

BTW, The hassle with having to use filters seems unacceptable to me for every nun (or Dinner Jacket - aka tuxedo) that might happen to be in a picture. My M8 arrived yesterday, I have just loaded the battery, but now I feel very much like sending it back to the dealer for a refund.

 

Peter W.

 

Hi Peter,

 

As I posted above, I suspect that one can also use a B+W IR cut filter and it will work fine. I'll know in a couple of days. I wouldn't send it back. Skip the tests for various flaws and just go make pictures with it. It's actually a wonderful machine and I've been using it with various CV lenses. If the IR cut filters work, they should be useable on any lens.

Cheers,

 

Sean

[msadat]

what is the number or model number of the IR filters you ordered?

 

TIA

[sean_reid]

Sean, as so many have said, thank you for all the valuable information you've given to us. SNIP...

 

Hi Steven,

 

Actually, I suspect as more examples of what this camera can do are published, more people will come around. The bottom line, for me, is that this is a great camera.

 

Cheersm

 

Sean

[sean_reid]

Hello Sean,

Could you tell me which filters you ordered and where you got them? Where did you find the best deal? I never use filters and am not in favor of them, but it looks like I will be forced to use them now. I have the 35mm 1.4 ASPH, the 50m 1.4 ASPH, and the Zeiss 25mm 2.8.

 

After a glorious Saturday in Central Park, taking shots that just amazed me with their color and resolution, I am now singing the "purple" blues after taking a picture of my wife in a black top and seeing, well, purple, of course.

 

Sigh, I'm trying to figure out what to do...

 

Regards,

 

Larry

 

Hi Larry,

 

I'd suggest just trying the filters and see how they do. There are going to be a core of us who like this camera well enough that we won't give up on it despite some discouraging aspects. Contact Tony Rose at POPFLASH.COM - Cameras & Photographic Equipment for the filters. I didn't price shop them but I like Tony's business and his prices are fair. Tell him you want the B+W IR cut filters for the M8 and he'll know what to do.

 

Next week I should be able to report back on how they did. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. People have to do what feels right for them but it seems that some are willing to throw out the baby with the bathwater. The camera is so good, overall, that I think it's worth messing with the filters to see what's possible.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[Bill Sievers]

Thanks for acting as an information conduit vis a vis Leica Sean.

 

I have a D200, and RD1 an M6 and an M7. I was ready to get the M8 this month. However, for the amount of money they are asking for Leica had better fix these problems. I have enough cameras to keep be busy in the meantime.

 

Bill Sievers

(AKA Captainvideo)

[sean_reid]

This is a sad situation, since the M8 produces glorious results in the vast majority of instances. (Indeed, my non-technical mind wonders whether the extended IR sensitivity, which is putting purple-in-the-blacks, might not actually translate into deeper shadow sensitivty and extended effective dynamic range? Correct me if I'm way-off, please.)

 

Thing is, given the uses Leicas are traditionally put to, the 'streaking' problem is unacceptable at any level. Similarly, since this is sold as a colour camera, chronically and severely false colour is equally unacceptable. Since Leica's entire rasion-d'etre is the production of absolutely compromise-free image quality, there is more than a touch of tragic irony involved in their ("just put a filter on it" answer -- most unleicaesque)

 

I just really hope Leica fixes these problems to their users' satisfaction before some American class-action attorney manages to bankrupt them....and I'm (sadly) not kidding. As a very small-volume manufacturer, their profit could easily be wiped-out. They really ought to stop shipping the camera in the US until they work out these issues, which I am confident they will. The problem is that their statements make it clear that they had knowledge of the problems ahead of selling the camera, which sours everyone's impression of the company .

 

 

Class Action suit? Please tell me that you're joking. People who are unhappy can just return their cameras. Let's not talk about suing a company just because we're dissapointed. Otherwise, I agree with your first post and I think that some people are going to miss out on a great camera because they're so unhappy with the current problems. I can't begin to count how many pictures I've made with the M8 that don't show any of these problems. I will use the filters for color work and while that's a slight hassle, I think its worth it because the camera is so good. I do hope that they're successful in fixing the color streaking with a firmware upgrade. I don't see it often but of course it shouldn't happen at all.

 

But, in the end, I care mostly about making pictures and the M8 is a great tool for that, warts and all.

 

There are some who perhaps have just gotten an M8 and who might be filling a little like the wind has been taken out of their sails. My advice is to just go out and shoot some pictures tomorrow; not tests but whatever kind of pictures you normally like to make. Pretend for a moment that you've never heard about the problems and just go see what the camera can do for you. You may be pleasantly surprised. I'm hearing about people planning to return cameras they've barely used. Heck, give it a whirl first and keep an open mind as to what might happen. Or be really brave and stay clear of the forums for a few days and just work with the camera to see what it can do. It's hard to approach the M8 with open mind right now but its a good idea.

 

What's getting lost in the unhappiness here is how good the camera is in so many ways. Not just how good it could be but how good it already is. How can I say that despite all these problems? I've been making lots of pictures with the M8 and I know what I like.

 

Cheers, G'night

 

Sean

[sdai]

Class Action suit? Please tell me that you're joking.

 

There's no reason why Leica wouldn't respect the professional advice from a REAL lawyer, Sean. And Nick ... is a friend of Michael.

[Guest stevenrk]

Hi Steven,

 

Actually, I suspect as more examples of what this camera can do are published, more people will come around. The bottom line, for me, is that this is a great camera.

 

Cheersm

 

Sean

 

Sean, and good for you for finding a tool that works for you.

 

But I'm guessing that your bottom line won't be shared by enough people to give Leica a bottom line that will keep them afloat. And as we now know -- from the information you were able to bring to us -- there is no fix, just a fully thought through engineering decision that led to an almost great camera with a Leica badge that takes a filter to get almost good colors. And likely a future business school case study in exactly what not to do if you're a small legacy camera company trying to hold on in the high end digital market.

 

Very sad to see. Takes out what promised to be a real alternative to the way we are able to interact with our subjects using digital.

 

Best, Steven

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[robertwright]

The description of the B+W filter on adorama is:

 

This B+W Interference Filter has a completely colorless glass carrier coated with a number of extremely thin, partially reflecting layers with precisely computed thicknesses, similar to MC coating.

 

The B+W Filter 486 does not block by means of absorption, but by interference of the unwanted UV- and IR radiation that is repeatedly reflected between these layers.

 

It is especially recommended for CCD applications where digital image sensors have not been fitted with an IR protection filter.

This filter is completely clear and it requires no increase in exposure. Its filter factor is 1.

 

"Absorption" is a regular word for quantum wave interference. Fun stuff.

Whatever filter that leica comes up with will either be their special computation for the wavelengths they deem problematic, or they will simply rebrand an existing filter for use.

 

someone mentioned if the IR has an impact on shadow detail and the answer is no. We cannot see IR, film has been traditionally formulated to not see IR because of these problems.