jaapv Posted June 15, 2009 Author Share #61 Posted June 15, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I have a 1987 Mercedes 280 GE. I love this car. I can enter online the parts service and order any part I like.Will I be able to fix my M8 similar way in 2028? How many Mp is that Mercedes? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 15, 2009 Posted June 15, 2009 Hi jaapv, Take a look here M9 on track. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
guidomo Posted June 15, 2009 Share #62 Posted June 15, 2009 2-year process?? Who told you that:confused:. The discussion is whether it will be early next year or PMA. And whether a stop-gap M8.3 will even be needed. PMA of what year? Are those dates from a Leica source? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted June 15, 2009 Share #63 Posted June 15, 2009 I have a 1987 Mercedes 280 GE. I love this car. I can enter online the parts service and order any part I like.Will I be able to fix my M8 similar way in 2028? Probably not... but I have a 1967 Leica M4 and can have any service I need, even not far from home... "it's the digiworld, baby"... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted June 15, 2009 Share #64 Posted June 15, 2009 PMA of what year? Are those dates from a Leica source? See the start of this thread.... but I confess I'm surprised and even prone to wonder how many beers Herr Daniel had accepted that day... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 15, 2009 Author Share #65 Posted June 15, 2009 No - that is me, typing a message on a grotty hot-spot after 16 hours of Leica went though my head.... Fotokina of course!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivar B Posted June 15, 2009 Share #66 Posted June 15, 2009 See the start of this thread.... but I confess I'm surprised and even prone to wonder how many beers Herr Daniel had accepted that day... He was not sitting at my table but I had a word with him afterwards, and it was clear to me that the news he indeed was sharing with us had been carefully thought out. As I recall, he said that some problems with the full frame M9 had been solved, but some problems still remained to be solved. What this means is anyones guess, but Jaap is a well informed and knowledgable observer, so his judgement may very well be right. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
crbirchenhall Posted June 15, 2009 Share #67 Posted June 15, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) That's why I'm convinced that the next M - whether it's an M8.3, or an M9 - will accept existing M lenses. It would be madness to do anything else. I am sure this is right, but I did not articulate my feelings well last time. My primary concern is that Leica's support for my M8.2 will have a restrictive life span due to "difficulties" in sourcing parts (sensors, processors,etc) from third parties. I am being overly pessimistic here? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbretteville Posted June 15, 2009 Share #68 Posted June 15, 2009 I am sure this is right, but I did not articulate my feelings well last time. My primary concern is that Leica's support for my M8.2 will have a restrictive life span due to "difficulties" in sourcing parts (sensors, processors,etc) from third parties. I am being overly pessimistic here? If you by this ask if you can get your M8 serviced 50+ years after you bought it like you can with an M3 (or most LTMs) the answer is 'No'. The supply of batteries will most likely be the first to dry up and as such service of the body it self might very well be a non issue. If your horizon is within the next 5 to 10 years I see no problem. While at Leica Customer Service on Friday I saw a large box full of Digilux 2 sensors and another with C-Lux lenses. There were shelf after shelf with compacts waiting to be serviced - digital and analogue. I saw several of the original D-Lux (a camera from 2003). - Carl Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrid Posted June 15, 2009 Share #69 Posted June 15, 2009 Whatever the M8.3 or M9 ends up being, they better figure out a way to price it more competitively. The stratospheric price tag of the M8.x is the biggest reason why sales are lagging. No body in their right mind is going to pay $8,000-10,000 for a full frame M9. $6,000 for the current body confines sales to all but the most dedicated or well heeled. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 15, 2009 Author Share #70 Posted June 15, 2009 It should be about the price af the current M8.2 I think. The complexity of the mechanical part is similar, the electronics are simpler and the sensor larger, that should more or less even out. Just consider that the price of the M8 is relatively not that much more than the price of an M7, which has no R&D component in it to speak of. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrid Posted June 15, 2009 Share #71 Posted June 15, 2009 It should be about the price af the current M8.2 I think. The complexity of the mechanical part is similar, the electronics are simpler and the sensor larger, that should more or less even out. Just consider that the price of the M8 is relatively not that much more than the price of an M7, which has no R&D component in it to speak of. The RF is complex, but not that complex. If they can share electronic components with the S2, then that should also help keep prices down. IMO the M8.2 is very overpriced at $6000 and according to both of my dealers that is why sales are so low. Even Nikon is getting a lot of flak for pricing the D3x at $8,000 and it may be the best DSLR on the market. Leicas have never been cheap, but their pricing does have to have some relevance to the realities of the market. Also keep in mind that an analog M would not become obsolete after a few years. 5 years from now the M8.2 will be looked at as a technological dinosaur. A very expensive dinosaur. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
batmobile Posted June 15, 2009 Share #72 Posted June 15, 2009 If the M9 is FF and has enough IQ to compete with the current FF from Canikon, I would actually bother considering one even if it was quite expensive. I have no interest in the M8.2 whatsoever because of the crop issue and measly resolution, but 20mp or so and FF would make me seriously think about it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 15, 2009 Author Share #73 Posted June 15, 2009 The RF is complex, but not that complex. If they can share electronic components with the S2, then that should also help keep prices down. IMO the M8.2 is very overpriced at $6000 and according to both of my dealers that is why sales are so low. Even Nikon is getting a lot of flak for pricing the D3x at $8,000 and it may be the best DSLR on the market. Leicas have never been cheap, but their pricing does have to have some relevance to the realities of the market. Also keep in mind that an analog M would not become obsolete after a few years. 5 years from now the M8.2 will be looked at as a technological dinosaur. A very expensive dinosaur. Ans argument that has been raging since 1925. Yes, Leicas cost a lot of money, no, they are not expensive. You should visit the factory once and see the way they are built. If anything they are underpriced. The mewrket does play a role, and in fact it forces the price down to the lowest level consistent with reasonable profit. That is the reason the company has been strapped for capital for as long as anybody can remember. The profits, such as they are, are ploughed back into the product, there is no fancy factory building, no marble-floor staff restaurant, the workers sit outside on the emergency stairs to have their cigarettes, the senior staf does not drive company Mercedes S cars,etc... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Thompson Posted June 15, 2009 Share #74 Posted June 15, 2009 The RF is complex, but not that complex. If they can share electronic components with the S2, then that should also help keep prices down. IMO the M8.2 is very overpriced at $6000 and according to both of my dealers that is why sales are so low. Even Nikon is getting a lot of flak for pricing the D3x at $8,000 and it may be the best DSLR on the market. Leicas have never been cheap, but their pricing does have to have some relevance to the realities of the market. Also keep in mind that an analog M would not become obsolete after a few years. 5 years from now the M8.2 will be looked at as a technological dinosaur. A very expensive dinosaur. Are you saying that any other manufacturer has produced a digital product that is not a dinosaur 5 years after purchase? ...and why does it matter? If I throw my M8.2 in the bin after 5 years is £800 per year cost of ownership unreasonable for a great hobby? If you think of many other hobbies the cost of entry is much higher. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KM-25 Posted June 15, 2009 Share #75 Posted June 15, 2009 $6,000 for the current body confines sales to all but the most dedicated or well heeled. Kurland Photo in NYC and Popflash in California consistently list the M8.2 at less than $5,000, I don't know why anyone would pay one thousand more for it. The next digital should not be more than $6,000 if at all possible and somewhere in the $5,000-$5,500 range would be a better bet. For the past three days, I was at a private meeting of some of the world's well heeled. While there is still wealth, many of the "Baby Boomers" as David Rubenstien put it, have had their fortunes totally wiped out in what Mr. Rubenstien called, "The Great Recession". This has and will change spending habits of most people: Permanently. Right about now might be a good time to start shedding the image that Leica is a trophy for the rich when there are more important trophies for the wealthy to obtain. I hear replies from those who seemed to be at this meeting, but I did not see any actual professional photographers referenced. Were there any working photographers at this meeting? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 15, 2009 Author Share #76 Posted June 15, 2009 Yes- there were, but in I could not give you a quantified answer. In these meetings there is really no discernable difference between professionals and amateurs. I'm sure Andreas could be more informative, as he has the background-information. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thejabok Posted June 15, 2009 Share #77 Posted June 15, 2009 The reason I visited my dealer was to check out the 24 'lux, which I was very impressed with. It's a beautiful piece of glass and I had pretty much decided to get one. But now I'm not so sure. It's a lot of cash to drop on a lens that might be part of a dead-end system. Noah, I think the single one thing that you can absolutely rely on with Leica is that they will never, never EVER, make a future M incompatible with their older lenses. Especially not the 24 Lux which has been released only recently and was probably developed when the R&D department of Leica already had a fairly good idea of what the M9 will be like. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJP Posted June 15, 2009 Share #78 Posted June 15, 2009 From a technical point of view a FF M9 is much easier to make compatible with the recent wide angle retrofocus designs (WATE, 24lux, 21lux, 18se) than with the older super angulon, hologon etc. So I would the expect the M8 to be fully compatible with all the current lenses, and slightly less compatible with the non-retrofocus wide angles for focal lengths below 24-28mm. It should still be possible to get usable results with some heavy postprocessing of the cornefix type with these older WA lenses. Disclaimer: this is educated guesswork - not fact. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted June 15, 2009 Share #79 Posted June 15, 2009 But now I'm not so sure. It's a lot of cash to drop on a lens that might be part of a dead-end system. Hi Noah, I don't think the digital M system will be a dead end at all. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted June 15, 2009 Share #80 Posted June 15, 2009 I had you down as one of the more intelligent M users but I'm not sure you've thought this one through. Okay, now that I have some sleep under my belt (I have a new 4 month old boy) I think I was wrong and confused. Of course the filters have been a PITA so best to see them gone. Whether we will or not is a whole 'nother matter. And good idea to keep the longer lenses on the M8 when working with both. As far as film users not switching to Digital M becasue of the filters is a bit of a red herring though if you ask me. Once I started to shoot with the M8, I haven't put a roll of color in my M7 in two years. Some b&w now and then but see no need to remove the filter (though have gotten some nasty reflections under candlelight). I'm sure that even with the M9, no matter what, there will be film M users still grumbling and finding a reason not to switch. Which is fine - I love film and hope people continue to shoot it for years to come (I know I will for certain projects). Just don't grumble about the M8/9 until you've actually worked with it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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