Hessenpark News: Official - No R10: no FF M9 (yet)

[pascal_meheut]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Well great Riccis. You keep using a $5,000.00 camera to do what almost any $600 camera produced today can do. Makes sense to me.....

 

. Oh, and the $600 digital camera with a fast lens is way bulkier than my little Ms

 

Not to mention that a film M is hardly worth $5000 today, that the viewfinder of $600 digital camera is usually the size of a timestamp, that having them focusing precisely where you want is not always obvious especially with a fast prime...

And getting good B&W with a digital $600 camera will need some work too.

 

Anyway, I've seen Ricci's pictures. Whatever he prefers is ok as long as gets this results..

[Guest malland]

That's all we have at the moment, and that's hot off the press, and from the horse's mouth...

You sound like the character in the movie LA Confidential, the editor of Hush-Hush Magazine, played by Danny DeVito

 

—Mitch/Chiang Mai

Wild Beasts of Botswana

[andybarton]

Great film, that.

 

Just trying to pass on what was being said, as it was being said.

[lct]

So, it's not from Leica, is full frame, Makes me think of an alliance with a manufacturer who does have a FF DSLR...

Or who's planning to launch a FF body. My (little) money is on a full frame Pana or PanaLeica G1 with a HD EVF. Better than nothing or better than stop down metering with Canikon?

[earleygallery]

Andy & Carl thanks for the information.

 

I've just read through all of this. So in summary, as I read it -

 

S2 - main priority for immediate future

 

M system - M8/8.2 continues for next 1-2 years, possibly some revised lens designs but no new/new, working on 'M9 FF'

 

R system/replacement - previous DSLR plans ditched. Working on an 'EVIL' system instead (sounds like a Digilux 3 with larger sensor) will take R lenses (with adapter)

 

Is that a fair summary so far?

 

I've found a digital solution for my R lenses, it cost me £20 and works great, so I agree with Andy in that Leica will need to come up with something that offers a better solution to those already on the market. A super Digilux would potentially be more affordable than a baby S2 too. Whatever, they need to bring their solution to market quickly or they risk losing their remaining R customer base completely.

 

I wonder how many have bought Canon bodies for their R glass, and then later added a couple of Canon lenses for full aperture metering and AF when needed, and then some more..............

[lct]

...I wonder how many have bought Canon bodies for their R glass, and then later added a couple of Canon lenses for full aperture metering and AF...

... or a couple of Zeiss lenses for full aperture metering only. Will probably be my next move unless the EVF of the next "R" is much better than that of the G1.

[delander †]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I think the news is very disappointing especially regarding the digital M which is my main Leica interest. And I think it is the heart of Leica. Excluding Epson's early attempt no other company has produced a digital rangefinder I hope they will.

 

Personally I can live with a 1.3 crop sensor, but I would like to see a better sensor with some more Mp and better high iso. And dont say that it is impossible because sensors have improved a lot over the last three years.

 

Leica's road is certainly a rocky one.

 

Jeff

[stunsworth]

I'm disappointed to. I can only assume it's a result of the state of the economy and their projected sales figures due to that. I'd guess the R10 development was at such an early stage of development that it could easily be cancelled. The S2 on the other hand was too far down the line to consider cancelling.

 

I'd expect Leica resources to focus on the M system once the S2 is out of the way. That's their bread and butter system after all.

[farnz]

I suppose it's mildly disappointing but, personally, I am happy that I have in my hands today a digital RF that's capable of taking excellent pictures despite the prospects of technical advances. It might be nice to have improvements but I'm prepared to continue to appreciate the tangible camera that I actually have for the time being.

 

Pete.

[giordano]

You might not see any, but they already did modify the F2 to the F2-R (check it on Camera Quest website here), and history could just repeat itself; this means that Nikon has the know-how to do it - will & agreements are a different matter of course

 

I'm sure that was a one-off conversion done by some workshop. Certainly nothing more was done than to screw the R mount onto the Nikon body: there was no auto aperture or meter coupling.

[carstenw]

In the light of the EVF R followup statement, I reiterate my expectation that Panasonic will make the camera. There is arguably no camera manufacturer in a better position to make a decent EVF, Leica and Panasonic are already partners, and anyway, Panasonic has been trying quite long now to break into the DSLR market, without much success. I don't think the 4/3 market is large enough for more than Olympus, and although the u4/3 market currently belongs to Panasonic, Olympus' digital Pen could change that overnight.

 

For Panasonic to build a G1-like FF camera which takes both uFF and adapted Leica lenses (similar to the situation with the G1 taking u4/3 and adapted 4/3 lenses), would give them an immediate advantage at the high end of that market. At least superificially it seems like a really interesting idea. If the camera is R7-sized, probably minus the prism, this would place it as *the* high-end compact FF camera on the market. In some ways, it would be like a Mamiya 7, and could have compact, high-quality wide angle lenses, and also teles, of course.

[ail]

 

SNIP

 

"From Stefan Daniel: there will be no R10 from Leica, but there will be a good solution that allows us to use our R-lenses on a digital body."

 

SNIP

 

Perhaps some sort of electro-mechanical adapter to allow R lenses to mount on an S series body?

 

Anyone know the lens flange to sensor distance on the S-series?

[earleygallery]

Perhaps some sort of electro-mechanical adapter to allow R lenses to mount on an S series body?

 

Anyone know the lens flange to sensor distance on the S-series?

 

The flange to sensor distance will be greater in the S2 so this isn't a possibility. Also the sensor is larger than 35mm. Not forgetting the S2 is very much aimed at the pro market, and will be priced accordingly.

[thrid]

Here are two ideas:

 

Theory 1:

 

It won't be an R10, but an S2 with a FF (36x24) sensor of much lower resolution (12-24MP?).

The mount would be S, not R and you will be able to use your R lenses via an adapter.

S-lenses could be used, but with a crop factor.

 

In essence the S2 format (30x45) becomes the new FF and FF (36x24) becomes the equivalent of APS in the Leica lineup.

 

Actually this would be a very smart move. They can build one camera that is mainly differentiated by the size of the sensor and mirrorbox

it incorporates. I would also not be surprised if the smaller sensor version uses an AF system with more focus points. This should keep

costs down, because the two cameras will share the majority of their components. A very, very smart move.

 

Theory 2:

It's an S2 that uses a 30x45 sensor, but it only has 12- 24MP. The thing would have receptors the size of a wheel barrel and would make the high iso

performance of something like a D700 look downright pedestrian. R-lenses would be supported via an adopter and crop mode.

 

 

That's my best guess.

[masjah]

Here's an idea.

 

It won't be an R10, but an S2 with a FF (36x24) sensor of much lower resolution (12-24MP?).

The mount would be S, not R and you will be able to use your R lenses via an adapter.

S-lenses could be used, but with a crop factor.

 

In essence the S2 format (30x45) becomes the new FF and FF (36x24) becomes the equivalent of APS in the Leica lineup.

 

Actually this would be a very smart move. They can build one camera that is mainly differentiated by the size of the sensor it incorporates.

I would also not be surprised if the smaller sensor version uses an AF system with more points.

 

That's my best guess.

 

Surely impossible. The S system sensor/flange distance is greater than that of the R system.

[ail]

In theory, and I wish to emphasise that this is only in theory, there is no reason why the slightly larger sensor height of 30 mm in the S2, as compared with 24mm for FF, could not be accommodated with a slightly *shorter* lens to flange distance than that of the R system. That is why I asked if anyone knew the flange to sensor distance for the S2.

 

Look at the Canon FD or, even better the Alpa Reflex, to see how close the flange can be to the film in a 35mm body, and extrapolate from there.

 

 

The flange to sensor distance will be greater in the S2 so this isn't a possibility. Also the sensor is larger than 35mm. Not forgetting the S2 is very much aimed at the pro market, and will be priced accordingly.

[rosuna]

i shall doublecheck on monday with my cambridge colleagues in the german language department, but i'd say you might want to doublecheck your semantics of the english language.

peter

 

I will doublecheck my Spanish too. Only for precaution...

[rosuna]

I was at the meeting of the LUF in Hessenpark when Stefan Daniel announced this bombshell.

Leica will not attempt to muscle in on the DSLR market, as they see it a a sure way to commit harakiri.

But there is no reason to sell your R lenses (unless, of course, you want to send them to me )

 

In a later conversation I had with Stefan later he outlined Leica's plans with full commitment:

Leica will have a FF EVF camera, fully compatible with R lensand of Leica quality. On the the EVF he said that Leica regards the G1 EVF as the very lowest acceptable quality and is aiming to offer something substantially better.es

 

That is really interesting. That is the future. DSLR only makes sense for large format "professional" products. The 35mm format will have a "pro" share, but it is owned by Nikon and Canon. The prosumer future is mirrorless cameras. I think can develop the M system in that direction... but the short lens to flange distance can be a serious problem. The fact is that a 35mm reflex camera means suicide at this moment, except if you can be competitive in price and features (and Leica cannot do it against Sony, Nikon and Canon). They must offer something different.

 

Olympus and Panasonic have developed the micro 4/3, but I think it is a Panasonic's idea. It compromises the future of the 4/3 platform and I think Olympus wasn't confortable with it. Canon, Nikon and Sony are glued to their reflex systems, and it isn't easy for them to abandon those systems. But the first company developing a mirrorless 35mm system will have a strike! Leica can be that company. The R system is dead.

[giordano]

In theory, and I wish to emphasise that this is only in theory, there is no reason why the slightly larger sensor height of 30 mm in the S2, as compared with 24mm for FF, could not be accommodated with a slightly *shorter* lens to flange distance than that of the R system. That is why I asked if anyone knew the flange to sensor distance for the S2.

 

Look at the Canon FD or, even better the Alpa Reflex, to see how close the flange can be to the film in a 35mm body, and extrapolate from there.

 

I'll be surprised if the S2's register is less than 54mm (R: 47, Mamiya 645: 63.3, Pentax 645: 70.9).

 

The Alpa's 37.8mm is an unrealistic comparison: it was designed in an age before auto aperture or retrofocus lenses and involved severe compromises. The mirror has to be so short that with long lenses the top of the finder image is cut off (IIRC this is visible by 200mm, and with a 400mm achromat less than 3/4 of the frame is visible). And the Alpa mount is flimsy by comparison with mainstream SLR lens mounts because of the very limited depth available.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[R10dreamer]

Gary - have you read this thread?

 

 

The M is the only unique camera out there.

 

Yes, I've read this thread. A model T is unique. A typewriter is unique. But I certainly don't want to be in the business of manufacturing and selling either. And the list of unique and unprofitable items is long and full of bankruptcy attornies.

 

The UNIQUE feature of Leica is the quality of their glass not the design of their camera's. At least, not any longer. The M was unique in design and use when it was viable before the digital age. Now, the M is unique in neither. Yes, it is still an "M" but it use and purpose are not unique. There are dozens of small, silent cameras out there that shoot 10 mpxl and up. And anyone that wants to argue that the 35mm negative is a better "image" than an existing 10+ mpxl camera just isn't looking at the pics. The M system was more an editorial candid camera than a technical in-studio camera and therefore the lens quality, although admirable, wasn't really functionally necessary except for marketing and jewelry purposes. I am talking final image quality here, not theoretical possibilities. Of course marketing any product for a higher class clientele is smart business if you have small production runs. There is however, for a utilitarian purpose, no reason to continue that marketing if the customer can't see any real quality gains. And those gains are now lost in this digital world. ie the M is past it's useful production cycle and hence the development of the S2.

 

Unfortunately the world is still a SLR world for most photographers that aspire to become professionals. And that is the rub with the lack of a viable option from Leica in the SLR market. They HAVE NONE. How in the heck can a company that essentially founded 35mm not have a professional 35mm sized camera in production? How? That is ludicrous. Canon and Nikon are beating Leica to death in the hi-end digital 35mm world and it is only because Leica keeps coming up 3 years behind the evolutionary timeline with digital. The M is dead from a digital mpxl world perspective. The S is too expensive for anyone but the very rich or the very productive professional photographer. That leaves one solution and that is a FF, 20+ mpxl R type camera that can compete with the N's and C's because of Leica's better perceived lens quality. To ignore this segment of the market and destroy that client base is simply bad business.

 

Time will tell what will come of this strategy. I am an unbelievably loyal R user and have been for years. If they can drive me away by continually turning their back on me, developmental wise, then I can only assume that there are lots and lots of others like myself that once/if we leave Leica will never come back. Does Leica care, I think so but they seem to be in panic mode with their constant changing of strategy and directors. Not a good thing.

 

http://www.garydwhalen.com