S2 under pricing pressure

[lct]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

...I have no glue if Leica will get the message and orient their prices...

Neither do i so i won't stick to that.

[carstenw]

The only 2 one cn somehow rely are Hasselblad and Phase / Mamiya. Period.

 

The rest is just hot air - at least for the next few months.

 

What do you mean rely [on]?

 

Mamiya might with a certain probability be unable to deliver a sharp lens. They will with certainty deliver the most 'plasticky' MF body on the market. There may or may not ever be any leaf shutter lenses, or a battery grip, although they have been promised.

 

Hasselblad will deliver a functioning body, but it might lose 10-20% value overnight the next time they decide to drop prices without warning. There will never be a high-speed shutter speed for outdoor usage in sunny weather. No grip has been promised.

 

Take your pick.

[ynp]

This is my first post here. I decided to register after I had seen the S2 on Photokina.

 

I am a Medium Format Sinarbacks user for more than 4 years and I shoot Sinar-m on a modified p2 with CAB lenses and I use Sinar-m with the Zeiss AF lenses. I also own a Hy6 with some Rollei lenses.

 

I do like both my systems, the focal plane shutter Sinar-m and leaf shutter Hy6. They are perfect for studio shooting. There are some limitations I am not happy about and I think that the S2 will be much better solution for some of the shooting situations:

 

1) The Sinar-m and Hy6 are not weatherproof .

2) The shortest lens is 40mm.

3) The Rollei AF Zoom is enormous and too heavy to shoot handheld. No AF Zoom for the Sinar-m.

4) a Combination of focal plane and leaf shutters is the most attractive feature of the S2 for me. A new System flash is a good icing on the cake.

 

I placed an order on the S2 here in Russia and hope that the price will be less than Euro 20,000 (with the 70mm lens). If I sell all my Rollei lenses and my Hy6 on eBay prices, I will be able to raise enough money to get the S2 and two lenses ( as a starter). The Sinar-M will be living its life in the studio where it belongs.

 

Believe me, there are some other people here who are ready to place orders and some of people I know here already did that.

 

Yevgeny

Moscow

[lxlim]

I intend to wait til late 2010 because that's my business cycle. That's when I look really hard at the technology and what it offers.

 

It makes my life simpler for me. Four years is about the time I really get to know the limits and capabilities of what I have got then I examine what I need to fill the gap or replace.

 

I like to think in terms of time efficiency, fatigue and expanding the scope of services to existing clients.

 

In those terms, my M8 beat my Canons by a wide margin, replacing them in areas that make sense.

 

For the S2, the same criteria applies.

 

I would characterise my M8s this way.

 

One is cranky, it does not like the way I turn the back dial, it has a certain reluctance to do as I command immediately and usually it does the opposite thing. I think it accepts the LCD only under duress shooting well otherwise. I just need to focus right and get my exposures right and forget about checking the image.

 

The other is mildly temperamental who kicked up a fuss and died after the 19,916th exposures of the project but thankfully revived to reach the finish line. It did do all the work so I guess its alright for it to take a break.

 

All in all a fruitful partnership with my M8s. If the S2 does as well, it will be a welcome addition. Neither the M8 nor the S2 can replace my Canons, they just are better at some things than others.

 

Until the S2 arrives, I will continue to enjoy this forum and all its varied and colourful posts.

[ptomsu]

What do you mean rely [on]?

 

Mamiya might with a certain probability be unable to deliver a sharp lens. They will with certainty deliver the most 'plasticky' MF body on the market. There may or may not ever be any leaf shutter lenses, or a battery grip, although they have been promised.

 

Hasselblad will deliver a functioning body, but it might lose 10-20% value overnight the next time they decide to drop prices without warning. There will never be a high-speed shutter speed for outdoor usage in sunny weather. No grip has been promised.

 

Take your pick.

 

I do not understand your point about Mamiya. They are delivering extremely sharp lenses. At least the ones I am interested in. And the camera itself is all other than plastic. And there will be also shutter lenses, although I do not need them

 

WRT Hassi, they have a functioning body. They have other limitations, the biggest one for me that they have only leaf shutters. And they closed their system, and I cannot use C1, which I love!

[carstenw]

I do not understand your point about Mamiya. They are delivering extremely sharp lenses. At least the ones I am interested in. And the camera itself is all other than plastic. And there will be also shutter lenses, although I do not need them

 

Will there? They are taking their time with these. The situation wrt. leaf shutter lenses is even worse than the S2, since there is no late-summer promise.

 

You know what I am talking about with respect to Mamiya lenses. Tim Ashley had a hell of a time and I think he eventually sold the whole kit. He was used to Leica lenses (front focus and all, in the case of the 35 Lux ASPH), and couldn't accept the quality level of the Mamiyas. Some are good, but there are quality issues, and several of the lenses are not that strong.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Carsten that my friend is a very dim view which is not even close to be the case. I have yet to return a lens , get a bad lens or any of that stuff. Your Zeiss lenses have been known to have some of the same lens quality issues and Leica has also. Not sure what your point here is but every company has quality issues and if you think Leica does not than I will start praying right now for you. I'm not even religious. LOL

 

I agree some things that where promised have not made it to market but I have a good feeling I know what that was and it came down to Mamiya and no money, Phase just invested very heavily in Mamiya and i do expect a major shakeup in products coming to light. Nobody in the industry is perfect if there was we would all have the same system. Mamiya needs several things no question and I am not here to defend them but actually help get some of this out the door like a new body but I think with this investment from Phase it will certainly stir the pot and honestly I shoot Mamiya glass and the comments I hear sometimes are absolutely border line pathetic. I would not shoot it if they were bad or even own the system. Carsten you know I have several hundred images from these lenses posted and you know I would be a idiot to post them if the glass sucked. Remember I came from more Leica lenses than most anyone here ever dreamed of owning and that is just scary to even say that. LOL

[ptomsu]

Carsten,

 

WRT lenses and comparing Leica to other brands - I have always said and am convinced (as I have possessed many lenses from all different brands - lot of time and money spent ), that all vendors have great and bad glass. Leica of course has a good reputation in producing good lenses and this is also due to a lot of other factors, mainly that lot of their designs are very conservative and over heavily and solid built, which also increases their cost. Would other vendors build the same way, the glass would most probably not be distinguishable

 

Now back to Mamiya and Leica - Mamiya 645 lenses (and I am only talking about the D lenses) are outstanding! Simply outstanding. Do they have flaws? Sure! But they are corrected easily in SW. Ever tried C1? Try it, the corrections work fast and exact and even with a number of non Phase (Mamiya) lenses.

 

Does Leica have any offer on MF lenses? NO! Sure they will, but this are all promises and we all are just speculating about possible lineup and prices. There is far more reality there today WRT Mamiy lenses as compared to Leica lenses.

 

Another point I need to make here. It is all the time discussed here, mentioned or at least assumed, that the S2 lenses will not need any corrections in SW. This is simple BS in my opinion! I give one example. Have a look on Sean Reids review of the latest 1.4/21 ASPH for M. The samples show, that this lens does have clear CA issues wide open. Which obviously you can correct in SW later. It is obviously not done in the M8. And BTW it is fully ok that this lens has some flaws. It is still a great exceptional lens, although for an exceptional price. But please stop the myth of Leica glass has no issues. Not even Leica themselves does that. read all their lens descriptions ....

 

Coming to the S System. Also these lenses must have flaws as any optical design. Maybe these flaws are less than in Hassi or Mamiya lenses but they will be there! Period. And they need to be corrected in SW - either in the S2 body or in post processing. Both is ok and both is what actually all the other vendors do as well. But I do not blieve this marketing BS of "we do all corrections in lens design already, o no need for any SW corrections ...."

 

Point is - Leica has nothing to show today, not even be able to hold wooden model of any of their promised pieces, and a number o folks here already hype the S System as the holy grail. But this is simply NOT true - and it will prove so due to many reasons.

 

Do I think one or the other system is better? NO! But I am realistic and I need a system autumn this year and so I will go for the one which is suiting my needs best by then. And most probably it is not Leica. And for sure I will not be pissed with the quality of lenses I get from another system - neither Mamiya, nor Hasselblad. And I do not even consider Schneider Hy6 etc.

[carstenw]

Carsten that my friend is a very dim view which is not even close to be the case.

 

Well, probably I have overstated the case. I do know that the D lenses, when they are good copies (most are, apparently), work really well.

 

However! Tim did get a series of bum lenses, and as the discussion on getdpi shows, the 28D never gets really truly sharp in the extreme corners, even admitted by Jack, the patriot saint of perfect lens copies. Some other lenses (was it the 45D?) never get as sharp as Jack's good copy of the 35, and so on. So, in summary, good lenses, sometimes great lenses, but by no means perfect.

 

It is of course an open question whether Leica can improve on this situation. I think they can, but proof will only come when they are released.

[georg]

"Leica has nothing to show today, not even be able to hold wooden model of any of their promised pieces"

 

Many of us got the chance to take a few pictures with the prototypes and see some shots of these early prototypes on Lightroom.

 

Mamiya offers nice lenses, but they lack mechanical quality and their optical performance is typical medium-format, what we know since decades. They are sharp - unless you don't look to far into the corners, they are contrasty - as long as you don't only use open aperture...

Guy, your pictures are great, but the crops you showed have the same quality I know from these designs - compare 1:1 with a technical lens (Rodenstock/Schneider) and you will see the difference.

Leica uses the same technology as with the newest M/R-lenses, the MTFs show the performance of Schneider/Rodenstock-lenses, they seem even superior wide open to stopped down Fuji/Mamiya (but we have to be very careful with comparisons of MTFs by different sources).

Ask an optical designer how difficult it is to design a f2,5-lens which is performing as well at open aperture as a f3,5 at f5,6...

 

Over the last 20 years Leica designed about 20-30 designs that set new standards, with innovative technologies and designs, I'm sure the lenses will be the main reason for the S-System. Can they get the right supplier-quality, will the firmware be ok? That are the questions, not the lenses.

Problems will always occur, but I handled many C/N/Mamiya-lenses which I would have send to customer service, when they were from Leica - for them, it was just normal...

 

Have you shot for yourself with the Summilux 21/24? They are better than C/N-lenses stopped down! (and the Nikon 1,4/28mm cost >3k$) and be careful with "CA" on the M8, like with MFDBs, even the very thin cover glass causes some problems that don't exist on film or with more advanced sensors/cover glasses.

 

Software can make certain issues from lenses less noticeable in the final image, that's not the problem - C1 will still be able to use these algorithms with S2-images. It's a problem when manufacturers rely on it to choose cheaper suppliers or designs and "let the software do the work" - exactly what happens with Hasselblad/Fuji - not a good way for systems which cost up 50k$ and are used in the most demanding situations.

[ptomsu]

"Leica has nothing to show today, not even be able to hold wooden model of any of their promised pieces"

 

Many of us got the chance to take a few pictures with the prototypes and see some shots of these early prototypes on Lightroom.

 

Mamiya offers nice lenses, but they lack mechanical quality and their optical performance is typical medium-format, what we know since decades. They are sharp - unless you don't look to far into the corners, they are contrasty - as long as you don't only use open aperture...

Guy, your pictures are great, but the crops you showed have the same quality I know from these designs - compare 1:1 with a technical lens (Rodenstock/Schneider) and you will see the difference.

Leica uses the same technology as with the newest M/R-lenses, the MTFs show the performance of Schneider/Rodenstock-lenses, they seem even superior wide open to stopped down Fuji/Mamiya (but we have to be very careful with comparisons of MTFs by different sources).

Ask an optical designer how difficult it is to design a f2,5-lens which is performing as well at open aperture as a f3,5 at f5,6...

 

Over the last 20 years Leica designed about 20-30 designs that set new standards, with innovative technologies and designs, I'm sure the lenses will be the main reason for the S-System. Can they get the right supplier-quality, will the firmware be ok? That are the questions, not the lenses.

Problems will always occur, but I handled many C/N/Mamiya-lenses which I would have send to customer service, when they were from Leica - for them, it was just normal...

 

Have you shot for yourself with the Summilux 21/24? They are better than C/N-lenses stopped down! (and the Nikon 1,4/28mm cost >3k$) and be careful with "CA" on the M8, like with MFDBs, even the very thin cover glass causes some problems that don't exist on film or with more advanced sensors/cover glasses.

 

Software can make certain issues from lenses less noticeable in the final image, that's not the problem - C1 will still be able to use these algorithms with S2-images. It's a problem when manufacturers rely on it to choose cheaper suppliers or designs and "let the software do the work" - exactly what happens with Hasselblad/Fuji - not a good way for systems which cost up 50k$ and are used in the most demanding situations.

 

Your words in god's (Leica's) ear

 

I hear what you say. Question remaining is still how much IQ do you need already from the lens and what are we discussing here - the last 2-5%? If so I must say,

 

I really do NOT care but rather work with a system which is available and shows 95-98% great results and this for a reasonable price (as far as these prices are reasonable at all).

[georg]

"Question remaining is still how much IQ do you need already from the lens and what are we discussing here - the last 2-5%? If so I must say"

 

Shooting a flower in the center of the picture handheld with f8? Printing for the newspaper? There are thousands of applications and customers who will never see a difference between Leica, Mamiya or 35mm-systems, not even 4/3 or full-frame, 12MP or 24MP.

 

The answer is quite simple: Everybody who chooses a MF-system over a 20+MP-DSLR, a 39MP-back over 22MP - those people are demanding for a good reason.

 

Always remember this is the upper end. Solutions above this market will be rare, made by tiny companies in tiny numbers - not such a big deal with mechanics, but electronics don't work that way. With the S2 we can have a first step into a product which is both, high-end-craftsmanship and highly customized electronics. No slow DSPs or backs somehow put together with a body and system - propably with 3 different companies behind it - even my M8 is somehow made this way, partly mechanical and really slow with bizarre side-effects (power consumption) - it offers something a 5DII or D700 cannot (tiny, great manufacturing, incredible lenses) but those side-effects of a small production-scale (and therefore investments into R&D) are unnecessary.

 

Some pros want modularity, need even more than 37MP, want to shift & tilt - well, they can choose from many great technical cameras, lenses and backs.

But that's not the way many MF-systems are used. Some companies try to hide their historic background (modular 6x4,5 film) by pretending a closed system (like Hasselblad) and that's what most pros seem to look for!

 

I won't buy a S2 for a simple reason: too big, too heavy, too expensive. But that's just me, I#ve sold my Hasselblad either. If Leica can get a grip in the digital world with the S2, even M-users will profit!

 

I think I'll use the great weather to take some pictures and we can discuss the S2 again when any real news are there! I think waiting for it, discussing every tiny aspect, speculating every message drives people nuts... ;-)

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Well, probably I have overstated the case. I do know that the D lenses, when they are good copies (most are, apparently), work really well.

 

However! Tim did get a series of bum lenses, and as the discussion on getdpi shows, the 28D never gets really truly sharp in the extreme corners, even admitted by Jack, the patriot saint of perfect lens copies. Some other lenses (was it the 45D?) never get as sharp as Jack's good copy of the 35, and so on. So, in summary, good lenses, sometimes great lenses, but by no means perfect.

 

It is of course an open question whether Leica can improve on this situation. I think they can, but proof will only come when they are released.

 

But neither does a Leica R 19mm lens. Or the 24mm . Non of them are sharp in the corners. Bottom line on the extreme wide angles there are very very few that can produce great corners no matter what brand. The Mamiya 28mm is a 30mm lens said it more times than I can count on a P25 or 45 sensor. On the P30 not a issue. Tim is somewhat a rare case and ran into some bad luck on a couple lenses but we can't hold Tim as the gold standard either, no offense to Tim but he is not the rule but the exception. We are all Leica fans here but if someone can get up out of there chair and say every lens Leica produced is the best ever made than they have some serious fan boy issues. I have owned many and there are a few dogs in the house but they do have some excellent lenses no question. Right now the S lenses are meaningless until it is in the real world, I could care less what a MTF chart means they are just theoretical numbers at this point, although they look good until we are in the streets with them than there just a barrel with glass in them. Not that there bad mind you the system is not made and tested for public knowledge. Seriously as much as I am a fan of Leica the fanboy mentality is just putting a screen door over some folks vision. Hard to do but we all need to be objectionable and frankly I don't see that. This is not buying a DMR or M8 this for the first time in Leica's history they are hitting really deep in our pockets and this takes serious thought and neutral thinking before dropping 30 grand or more on a system. I think way too many folks are completely overlooking this fact, maybe they have a load more money than I do and don't care and maybe I should stop worrying what people can afford as well. But anyone that knows me, I like to give the best buy decision I can. Right now in my view on what is speculated on pricing , not sure this has the real value behind hit. But until it is out and what this total system consist of and costs, I will hold further judgement. I am just not looking at this blindly and maybe that bugs folks. 30k or more would put me completely out of business after over 30 years in it, if this was a complete mistake and was a bomb.

 

 

BTW from Phase this morning announcement. Phase Body, 80mm D lens and a P30 + back (31mpx) LIST PRICE 16,995 US

[carstenw]

But neither does a Leica R 19mm lens. Or the 24mm . Non of them are sharp in the corners.

 

The 24mm is an older design. The 19mm is a good comparison though.

 

We are all Leica fans here but if someone can get up out of there chair and say every lens Leica produced is the best ever made than they have some serious fan boy issues.

 

I can't even say that myself. My 50 Lux ASPH has been in three times for various stiffness and looseness issues, my 35 Lux ASPH started unscrewing itself, and my M8 needed that one trip, and would have needed another if it hadn't spontaneously arisen from the dead.

 

This is not what I am on about. I have no illusions about various shortcomings of the past. I also have no illusions that all Leica S2 bodies and lenses will be perfect out of the box and stay that way.

 

What I do believe is that the 24mm lens, among others, will be astonishingly good. Sharp to the corners, and little-to-no CA, distortion, and so on. Leica has taken the opportunity to start from scratch with this system in a way that no company before it has done, except Olympus with the 4/3 system. Hasselblad stuck with the old camera+back format and found that tolerances were sometimes an issue. Mamiya has done the same, and many of the lenses have not even been updated for digital, apart from improvements in build quality and the clutch system. Nikon and Canon just put sensors in big film-like bodies.

 

I believe (and I always try to remember to qualify this: I don't know) that the S2 system will be a large step forward in the high-end FF-35mm/MF digital arena. Weather seals, integrated, compact, fast, designed for digital, top-notch optical quality, and so on.

 

I think that the idea is strong enough that it will change the market in a significant way. Leica is strong enough today that they can take on companies like Hasselblad. It was not that way a few years ago, but things have turned around.

 

I look forward to seeing it unfold. I already have in the back of my mind that I need to pick out a bank and a pair of stockings before the end of the summer

 

BTW from Phase this morning announcement. Phase Body, 80mm D lens and a P30 + back (31mpx) LIST PRICE 16,995 US

 

Nice price. I wonder what the price for the P30+ Contax-mount will be in the next few months, in Europe? I still haven't bought a back and am open to everything (except expensive stuff ).

[wlaidlaw]

I think Carsten has made a very significant point about the rigidity and accuracy of the S2 sensor in relation to the lens. My two forays into removable back cameras were not happy ones. My Mamiya 645 was never sharp over the whole image. The 220 back was always a little better than the 120. I kept it for a long time, as it was a 40th birthday present from my wife. Eventually I decided to upgrade and bought an ex-demo Bronica. The Bronica I had briefly, was dreadful, even after going back twice to have front focus adjusted. A Lomo would have taken sharper photos. I finally returned it in exchange for an extra Contax SLR RX body.

 

Wilson

[Guest guy_mancuso]

The 24mm is an older design. The 19mm is a good comparison though.

 

 

 

I can't even say that myself. My 50 Lux ASPH has been in three times for various stiffness and looseness issues, my 35 Lux ASPH started unscrewing itself, and my M8 needed that one trip, and would have needed another if it hadn't spontaneously arisen from the dead.

 

This is not what I am on about. I have no illusions about various shortcomings of the past. I also have no illusions that all Leica S2 bodies and lenses will be perfect out of the box and stay that way.

 

What I do believe is that the 24mm lens, among others, will be astonishingly good. Sharp to the corners, and little-to-no CA, distortion, and so on. Leica has taken the opportunity to start from scratch with this system in a way that no company before it has done, except Olympus with the 4/3 system. Hasselblad stuck with the old camera+back format and found that tolerances were sometimes an issue. Mamiya has done the same, and many of the lenses have not even been updated for digital, apart from improvements in build quality and the clutch system. Nikon and Canon just put sensors in big film-like bodies.

 

I believe (and I always try to remember to qualify this: I don't know) that the S2 system will be a large step forward in the high-end FF-35mm/MF digital arena. Weather seals, integrated, compact, fast, designed for digital, top-notch optical quality, and so on.

 

I think that the idea is strong enough that it will change the market in a significant way. Leica is strong enough today that they can take on companies like Hasselblad. It was not that way a few years ago, but things have turned around.

 

I look forward to seeing it unfold. I already have in the back of my mind that I need to pick out a bank and a pair of stockings before the end of the summer

 

 

 

Nice price. I wonder what the price for the P30+ Contax-mount will be in the next few months, in Europe? I still haven't bought a back and am open to everything (except expensive stuff ).

 

 

I hope so Carsten, I hope it is everything folks are looking for at a price we all can afford but just in case . I will send you my last custom made ski mask to you for your bank visit. LOL

 

The P30+ would be a nice back for your Contax no doubt. Used they are not very expensive and may go down more on the used market now the P40+is out. But I don't know prices over in Europe very well compared to the US

[barjohn]

In case some of you haven't seen this add I just received it in today's email. I would certainly call this pricing pressure. Especially since it is a known quality and support product versus an unknown (especially the support part).

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Exactly what I have and it is a very nice back. The pressure is on the industry and this is just one item out there. Hassy has been a little too quiet lately on new product and there using basically the same sensor as the S2 on there h3/ 50 back.

[charlesphoto99]

Image quality is fine and all, but doesn't mean squat if the camera is always back for (loooong and slooow) service. As my M8 (well one of them - finally had to get two just for this reason) goes back for the third time for a simple mechanical problem Leica can't seem to grasp (sticky framelines) I wonder how Leica will deal with pros and the S2. Leica New Jersey in particular. This camera and it's service had better be airtight from the beginning because word spreads fast these days and most pros don't nitpick corners. They just want a camera that makes good pictures and WORKS! I love my M8 and shoot thousands of pics with it but when I go to a paying job it's my Nikon D3 that comes along.

 

I love the S2 concept and of course it's as beautiful as everything Leica designs. I'll never be able to afford it. I hope it works for them but it won't unless they get the organization behind the hardware up to snuff.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[stunsworth]

...and there using basically the same sensor as the S2 on there h3/ 50 back.

 

Really?