Guest malland Posted March 1, 2009 Share #221 Posted March 1, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Well Mitch that very well may happen in future firmwares.With this reversal of policy, discrete mode, you never know what is up there sleeve. I'm not sure I'll ever need or use this new feature, I liked they included Auto ISO but after using it for about a week or 2 I went back to my old habits, IE a manually SET ISO, but it will be nice to have it. Just like Auto ISO is good to have. Interesting on Auto ISO, I've been using it all the time, except when I want to shoot at a specific ISO, because it tends to use a lower ISO than I would chose. However, in my view, the manual ISO setting needs to be implemented in a way similar to how one changes the EV setting, so that it can be done more quickly than by going into a menu — and this would require another firmware change. —Mitch/Potomac, MD Wiang Pa Pao - a set on Flickr Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 1, 2009 Posted March 1, 2009 Hi Guest malland, Take a look here M8 Firmware 2.004. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Isabelle Lenatio Posted March 1, 2009 Share #222 Posted March 1, 2009 Please. If you can't keep it civil, please resist posting at all. We do not take kindly to tolerate personal attacks here, and will take sanctions if they persist I love the last sentence .... last time I heard this was at my finishing school slightly north west of London... "and will take sanctions if they persist" don't you just love the perfect sequence of these words .... :-) I actually made a bet with myself that if this thread would turn hostile before Sunday I would have 2 deserts for monday dinner .... yeay!!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
guidomo Posted March 1, 2009 Share #223 Posted March 1, 2009 I'm trying to figure out the complaints myself. When you give a kid a lollypop for free , usually there not going to complain about the flavor. I think the above comparison is not entirely accurate. As many (including most vocally Mark Norton if I am not mistaken) believed and see now confirmed, the M8 is perfectly capable of the delayed shutter rewind. Since both the M8 and M8.2 run the same firmware, this firmware must have deliberately suppressed the function when it sees it is running on an M8. In other words, the feature was there and Leica decided to spend an extra effort in order NOT to give it to M8 owners. This IMHO is quite different from not making an effort to develop it in the first place. So, a better comparison would have been that we were previously given a free Lollypop that we could not open Don't get me wrong, I don't think Leica owe any M8 owner any new features, it just felt a little cheeky to deliberately withhold a function they had developed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfokevin Posted March 1, 2009 Share #224 Posted March 1, 2009 I guess an evil story sells better than a rather benign one like; They have needed time to let a few select heavy M8 users (And Oprah) test it out and make sure that it does not destroy the shutter that was not designed for it... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted March 1, 2009 Share #225 Posted March 1, 2009 Yes, as I have previously explained, the discreet mode is selected from the main menu, so the simplest way of excluding it from the M8 and M8u would have been to remove it from the menu display so that the option could not be selected. Of course I do not know how they actually did it. There's little doubt in my mind that the initial work was increased by the requirement to exclude it from some versions of the camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted March 1, 2009 Share #226 Posted March 1, 2009 I guess an evil story sells better than a rather benign one like; They have needed time to let a few select heavy M8 users (And Oprah) test it out and make sure that it does not destroy the shutter that was not designed for it... Sorry, I don't think there are any reliability implications of the discreet mode. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted March 1, 2009 Share #227 Posted March 1, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Let's face it, Leica has to sell product, just like anyone else. They obviously withheld this feature - but the positive part of the story is that they now decided to reverse that decision. They really never needed to go that extra step, and we should thank them for it, instead of biting the hand that feeds us. They will need to make these sorts of decisions in the future - Dr Kaufmann even said in an interview in LFI that the S2 software would cascade down to other cameras with certain features disabled. This is just normal business practice. Leica has no obligation to give everyone equal treatment - and they chose to give preferential treatment to those people who bought a newer and more expensive camera. Simple as that really. I'm very glad that my camera (which I bought without this feature, and with no expectation of ever getting it), is now going to also be improved by it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vieri Posted March 1, 2009 Share #228 Posted March 1, 2009 Let's face it, Leica has to sell product, just like anyone else. They obviously withheld this feature - but the positive part of the story is that they now decided to reverse that decision. They really never needed to go that extra step, and we should thank them for it, instead of biting the hand that feeds us. They will need to make these sorts of decisions in the future - Dr Kaufmann even said in an interview in LFI that the S2 software would cascade down to other cameras with certain features disabled. This is just normal business practice. Leica has no obligation to give everyone equal treatment - and they chose to give preferential treatment to those people who bought a newer and more expensive camera. Simple as that really. I'm very glad that my camera (which I bought without this feature, and with no expectation of ever getting it), is now going to also be improved by it. All very cool, and I would completely agree with you if Leica wouldn't have launched the (in)famous "perpetual upgrade" program, where they promised to keep the M8 up to date - as per the program's name - perpetually. Not "perpetually but we disable the feature in the relevant FW first, we profit some by selling cameras to people whom we made think certain updates available just on the newer model will never be available on the older model, and we then eventually enable the feature on a following FW so we can give it to people when sales of the newer model have peaked..." The problem I have with Leica is not by their business practice - as you say, is perfectly acceptable (or, acceptable, at least); as I said, what I take exception with is their communication & marketing, which is lousy at best and - worse case scenario - deceiving in order to boost the M8.2's sales, or at least not to trump them. I want to think all the best of Leica, and rather think they messed up - but in either case, it doesn't look like a particularly good way of running a business vs customer's good will & good faith. Just my opinion of course... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
guidomo Posted March 1, 2009 Share #229 Posted March 1, 2009 Let's face it, Leica has to sell product, just like anyone else. They obviously withheld this feature - but the positive part of the story is that they now decided to reverse that decision. They really never needed to go that extra step, and we should thank them for it, instead of biting the hand that feeds us. They will need to make these sorts of decisions in the future - Dr Kaufmann even said in an interview in LFI that the S2 software would cascade down to other cameras with certain features disabled. This is just normal business practice. Leica has no obligation to give everyone equal treatment - and they chose to give preferential treatment to those people who bought a newer and more expensive camera. Simple as that really. I'm very glad that my camera (which I bought without this feature, and with no expectation of ever getting it), is now going to also be improved by it. I agree to all you said about Leica offering something we as M8 owners would not originally have expected to get and I do thank Leica for giving us the feature now. However, don't forget that normal business practice would have been to offer the update for a price. And it would have been in line with their perpetual upgrade promises. This was not done however and I cannot help but agree to Vieri's theory that Leica wanted to boost M8.2 sales this way. I think going forward Leica needs to realise that in fact it is their loyal customers who are feeding them - much more so than the other way around. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted March 1, 2009 Share #230 Posted March 1, 2009 Let's face it, Leica has to sell product, just like anyone else. They obviously withheld this feature - but the positive part of the story is that they now decided to reverse that decision. They really never needed to go that extra step, and we should thank them for it, instead of biting the hand that feeds us. Too right! As one of the people who was most vocal in their concern about the noisy shutter actuation / re-cock cycle on the M8, and who was actively corresponding with Mr Daniel and Mr Kaufmann when the original M8 was launched with requests for improvements, and then, at the time of the release of the M8.2, with complaints that the discreet mode feature was not going to be implemented in a firmware upgrade, I've hurled some brickbats at the organisation. Yesterday - on the assumption that the original post which launched this thread was correct, I wrote again to Mr Daniel to say thank you. Remember, folks, they didn't have to do this!! What on earth are we complaining about now that they have? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted March 1, 2009 Share #231 Posted March 1, 2009 I'm not saying they didn't do it to boost M8.2 sales but there doesn't seem to be any way to implement it in original M8's with upgrades, M8u, without allowing it to be implemented for all versions of M8's. That is why they didn't offer this with the upgrade at any cost. It's a firmware feature and once implement for M8u's it would of been available for all M8's So the M8.2 has some other electronic part in it, different from the M8c and M8u, that allows the firmware to see it. Now Leica figures the M8 has run it's course and the only way to sell more units is to implement as many features as possible. I agree to all you said about Leica offering something we as M8 owners would not originally have expected to get and I do thank Leica for giving us the feature now. However, don't forget that normal business practice would have been to offer the update for a price. And it would have been in line with their perpetual upgrade promises. This was not done however and I cannot help but agree to Vieri's theory that Leica wanted to boost M8.2 sales this way. I think going forward Leica needs to realise that in fact it is their loyal customers who are feeding them - much more so than the other way around. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philippe D. Posted March 1, 2009 Share #232 Posted March 1, 2009 I'm very glad that my camera (which I bought without this feature, and with no expectation of ever getting it), is now going to also be improved by it.I agree to those wise words.As i bought my M8s, it was not made any mention about possible material upgrades, the technical data was known and accepted. Period. Mr. Kaufmann told us much later on that upgrades could be available. I was tempted to do it on one body at least, but as the prices where released, i changed my mind. I didn't not had any attraction for the 8.2 either, so i let it be. I don't understand those who are angry and frustrated just because they don't get an M8.6 right away. I'm glad to get this discreet mode I didn't expect. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted March 1, 2009 Share #233 Posted March 1, 2009 When you look back Leica made a decision not to include this discreet shutter in the M8 original or the upgrade. We had a very long complaining thread about this. Why change this decision now? It was history, we didn't like it but accepted it. So I dont think this 'reversal' is part of a plan made at the time the M8.2 was released. In some ways Leica would have been better off letting sleeping dogs lie. That being said thanks Leica, it has made me feel better about the company, not worse. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ariston Posted March 1, 2009 Share #234 Posted March 1, 2009 Good Grief! This thread started off well but disintegrated into a bun fight. Leica just offered something which people have been asking for for many months. I fail to see how this anything other than a good thing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott kirkpatrick Posted March 1, 2009 Share #235 Posted March 1, 2009 Sorry, I don't think there are any reliability implications of the discreet mode. Mark, I disagree slightly. Before firmware 2.00x, a shutter which failed to complete its re-cocking due to low battery or any other nonfatal problems couldn't be reset without a service center visit. Removing the battery and replacing it didn't do any good. I had a case of that with an M8. After 2.00 came out there were still examples of shutter re-cocking problems in some cameras, but now this could be reset by one of the power-off options, either the switch or the battery. My M8.2 was one of these. J_lir had another, and I think there was a third poster who reported it. I was told by Leica that this wasn't a firmware problem, but the shutter was probably out of spec. I sent it to Solms where it was tested, CLA'd and returned to me. I haven't stress-tested it since to see if the issue is completely gone, but will when I get some free time. So my theory is that in the course of putting the discreet option into the firmware they also made the shutter management more robust, by putting in some power-on checks that were not there before. This would reduce cameras that require warranty service, save Leica some serious money, and contribute to customer sat. What do you think? scott Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
milyovsky Posted March 1, 2009 Share #236 Posted March 1, 2009 One of the reasons I got the M8.2 was the discreet advance. Should have waited I guess.Overall, it's good since it will increase the value of the M8. You should not assume that sound of the shutter itself on the M8 will be as quiet as the sound on the M8.2 even though there may be a discreet mode. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted March 2, 2009 Share #237 Posted March 2, 2009 You should not assume that sound of the shutter itself on the M8 will be as quiet as the sound on the M8.2 even though there may be a discreet mode. I agree, to a first approximation, it will sound the same as when the camera is on "B" - the initial sound of the shutter opening and the motor wind when it closes. The shutter itself is rather quieter than the release solenoid and the motor under load. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfokevin Posted March 2, 2009 Share #238 Posted March 2, 2009 Sorry, I don't think there are any reliability implications of the discreet mode. I can GUARANTEE you that there will be a thread on this forum in less than 30 days that will have the headline "Discreet Mode destroyed my Shutter"... Off to Solms again... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NB23 Posted March 2, 2009 Share #239 Posted March 2, 2009 I can GUARANTEE you that there will be a thread on this forum in less than 30 days that will have the headline "Discreet Mode destroyed my Shutter"... Off to Solms again... Are you saying that YOU know better then they do at Leica? I doubt it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfokevin Posted March 2, 2009 Share #240 Posted March 2, 2009 Are you saying that YOU know better then they do at Leica? I doubt it. I'm saying I know how this forum works... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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