Night scene (banding at ISO 640)

[pklein]

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We've had quite a snowstorm in the Northwest US. Last night I took a few shots out my back window, showing the snow swirling in the wind. The shots at ISO 320 were fine. But the shots at ISO 640 showed banding in the very darkest areas, at pixel values of about 1-5 (on a scale of 0-255). Is just normal sensor confusion right at the noise floor, or is there something wrong? I'm guessing that at 640, I had less dynamic range in the shadows, and hit bottom quicker.

 

The first picture is at ISO 320, the second is at 640. Equivalent manual exposure for both shots: 1/15 at f/2.8 for the 320 shot, BW conversion and some curve adjustments applied. No conversion, 1/15 at f/4 for the 640. The forum's software is pulling the shadows down, but you can see the banding at the bottom of the snow swirl in the second picture. You can also see it in the middle of the picture in the original.

 

--Peter

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[padraigm]

You know it is probably just normal noise(for an M8). Sometimes at 640 everything is fine for me, but in some situations (I guess with a lot of shadows detail) the noise can surprise you...

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[DwF]

Here is one that I took last Sunday evening when our snow began falling. I confess this one was taken behind the wheel....at least I wasn't talking on the cell phone In fact I pulled over to do this and the second exposure that I made that evening was taken outside the vehicle...but that one didn't work for me.

 

There is some banding but in setting the levels in B&W, most of it is buried.

 

I find that 640 is really touch and go for me shooting in night with point light sources that highlight what would otherwise be shadowy areas. so it becomes a balancing act to preserve detail in those areas while suppressing noise and banding.

 

david

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[jaapv]

I would say the main problem is trying to preserve the highlights thus underexposing the shadows. The M8 becomes noisy if you do that.

[DwF]

I would say the main problem is trying to preserve the highlights thus underexposing the shadows. The M8 becomes noisy if you do that.

 

Jaap,

 

I still tend to follow the old rule "expose for the shadows...." and while mindful of blown highlights, I find particularly from iso 640 in post-processing, it is a fragile balance to keep the noise down. I read in the thread here a week or so ago where it is necessary to be spot-on with exposure when shooting at iso 640, but that sort of implies to me not to over expose (shadows?).

 

David

[jaapv]

You're right, David, the M8 is finicky in that respect. One really has to lift the shadows above the noise floor and that means highlights can be blown out in the process. And I can certainly see why you wanted to be careful with the highlights in the shots. What I did was make an exposure bracket series to find the sweet spot. I found it very hard to achieve consistency. And now I use an incident light meter when it gets critical

[DwF]

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Well, if one is going to resort to carrying an incident light meter, one might as well throw an M2 in the bag as well. ......I am missing my M2 (selling mine helped fund the M8) and considering picking one up

[jaapv]

I sympathize. I kept my M3 Don't use it much, though

[chilihead]

Have you seen Mike Johnson's (Online Photographer) night shots taken on a Nikon D700 @ 2500? If you have not - take a look. No "banding", and no B.S. Just acres of smooth black. How does the Nikon D700 do that anyway....?

[jaapv]

Brilliant electronics....

[plasticman]

Brilliant electronics....

 

But Jaap - isn't this what digital cameras should be?

 

Very often one reads here derogatory comments about how Canon and Nikon electronically process the noise out of their files - and how awful such a thing is! And then there is general jubilation when a Leica firmware update allegedly does the same thing.

 

Please take note: I'm writing this from the perspective of actually looking to buy an M8 once again. Idiotic really. I've been looking at a couple of very nice used examples, but also considering whether to dig out my partner's old unused SLR and take advantage of the trade-in for a new model.

 

Under those circumstances, I hate being reminded of how poor the M8 is at higher ISOs.

[jaapv]

Not quite - any electronic manipulation leaves its traces in the final image. I prefer to control that myself by for instance noise ninja, if possible applied selectively. I do not like some little machine in the camera to do that for me.

[jaapv]

Under those circumstances, I hate being reminded of how poor the M8 is at higher ISOs.

 

Is it?

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/67045-learning-love-1250-a.html

 

I would call it difficult rather than poor.

[DwF]

Have you seen Mike Johnson's (Online Photographer) night shots taken on a Nikon D700 @ 2500? If you have not - take a look. No "banding", and no B.S. Just acres of smooth black. How does the Nikon D700 do that anyway....?

 

No doubt the Nikon and Pentax have the edge on high iso. The M8 functions beautifully in low light when using fast glass and lower iso. This exposure was iso160 at 1/20th I'll keep my M8

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[plasticman]

Not quite - any electronic manipulation leaves its traces in the final image. I prefer to control that myself by for instance noise ninja, if possible applied selectively. I do not like some little machine in the camera to do that for me.

 

You avoid my point. I do not see much regret when people on this forum say that 'the latest firmware' has lowered noise levels in their images.

 

Anyway, the discussion has gone around many, many times - no need to go over it again. I've seen all the posts - both good and bad. As I've said before, I was on the pre-order waiting list for the M8, so I've gone around a few times.

 

At the risk of setting-off a meltdown, one reason I've decided to possibly buy an M8 now is because I have serious misgivings that the M9 I decided to wait for may never actually come. This means I'm balancing my rather hefty investment in Leica equipment against (what I consider is) the distinct possibility that the camera is unsupported in the longterm.

 

The reason I chimed-in at all is that I'm sometimes frustrated that the obvious advantages that other cameras have over the M8 are often referred to in pejorative terms by the M8 loyalists on this forum. How on earth 'brilliant electronics' could ever be seen as a bad thing for an electronic camera to be really, really beats me.

 

Incidentally, as a balance to the negativity, one thing that struck me about at least one of the used cameras that I tried (in mint condition, as it happens) was how amazingly quiet the shutter was. I guess they do wear-in over time - it was much quieter than the new camera I'd tried before. I now have actually no idea why people complain about the shutter-noise.

[jaapv]

Mani - the fact that I apprciate the Nikon approach does not preclude my liking to have more control, like on the M8. Different things. If I preferred the Nikon I would buy the Nikon. And the only influence the newest firmware has had on sensor noise is the fact that auto/ISO has led to fewer underexposed shots, hence to more `noisefree` images. With proper exposure older firmware is exactly the same in this respect.

[plasticman]

Mani - the fact that I apprciate the Nikon approach does not preclude my liking to have more control, like on the M8. Different things. If I preferred the Nikon I would buy the Nikon. And the only influence the newest firmware has had on sensor noise is the fact that auto/ISO has led to fewer underexposed shots, hence to more `noisefree` images. With proper exposure older firmware is exactly the same in this respect.

 

Ah now I believe you're misunderstanding me on purpose, Jaap. Nevermind.

[Shootist]

You avoid my point. I do not see much regret when people on this forum say that 'the latest firmware' has lowered noise levels in their images.

 

Anyway, the discussion has gone around many, many times - no need to go over it again. I've seen all the posts - both good and bad. As I've said before, I was on the pre-order waiting list for the M8, so I've gone around a few times.

 

At the risk of setting-off a meltdown, one reason I've decided to possibly buy an M8 now is because I have serious misgivings that the M9 I decided to wait for may never actually come. This means I'm balancing my rather hefty investment in Leica equipment against (what I consider is) the distinct possibility that the camera is unsupported in the longterm.

 

The reason I chimed-in at all is that I'm sometimes frustrated that the obvious advantages that other cameras have over the M8 are often referred to in pejorative terms by the M8 loyalists on this forum. How on earth 'brilliant electronics' could ever be seen as a bad thing for an electronic camera to be really, really beats me.

 

Incidentally, as a balance to the negativity, one thing that struck me about at least one of the used cameras that I tried (in mint condition, as it happens) was how amazingly quiet the shutter was. I guess they do wear-in over time - it was much quieter than the new camera I'd tried before. I now have actually no idea why people complain about the shutter-noise.

 

I don't think he was avoiding your point, he answered it.

Although there may be many apologists/loyalists on this forum that does not take away the pleasure of using a digital M. The bad part comes in when the camera makes all the decision instead of the photographer making them. If you are looking for a brilliant camera the M8 isn't it.

It is only you that have missed the 2 years of joy using the M8, even with it many flaws it is my only camera at this time and will be for what I hope is a long time.

Personally I'm waiting for a truck that gets 50MPG before I buy something new, yeah right.

 

To me the shutter was never that loud and both of my M8's sound about the same. One is a new camera as of September of this year and the other from June of last year.

 

Oh and I really don't see any banding in the OP's image and I've looked at on 3 different monitors.

[jaapv]

Ah now I believe you're misunderstanding me on purpose, Jaap. Nevermind.

I'm not so sure about that, Mani. To begin with, my first post about Nikon was not negative. And I really prefer to be able to noise-reduce the important areas of an image only. No way can a camera do that for me. Ready-made or DIY...

As for the shutter, I have two cameras side by side. one the old shutter, one the new. The difference is there, undeniably. But it is not that much of a difference in daily use. If you buy an M8-2 you will have the delayed recock. Now that, combined with the new shutter, may really be spectacularly more silent.

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[plasticman]

I don't think he was avoiding your point, he answered it.

Although there may be many apologists/loyalists on this forum that does not take away the pleasure of using a digital M. The bad part comes in when the camera makes all the decision instead of the photographer making them. If you are looking for a brilliant camera the M8 isn't it.

It is only you that have missed the 2 years of joy using the M8, even with it many flaws it is my only camera at this time and will be for what I hope is a long time.

Personally I'm waiting for a truck that gets 50MPG before I buy something new, yeah right.

 

To me the shutter was never that loud and both of my M8's sound about the same. One is a new camera as of September of this year and the other from June of last year.

 

Oh and I really don't see any banding in the OP's image and I've looked at on 3 different monitors.

 

Shootist - you said you were adding me to your ignore list a long time ago - about the time you hysterically insulted me, so that the moderators deleted your messages. Please do so today.

Incidentally, I have an M7, an M6, and an RD1s, so I don't feel like I've "missed the 2 years of joy using the M8" thank you very much.

 

 

Personally I'm waiting for a truck that gets 50MPG before I buy something new, yeah right.

 

I don't even see the point of this attempt at an insult? Am I not allowed to consider the pros and cons of different cameras before I decide to buy one? I don't understand you.