dsapkota Posted July 8, 2008 Share #1 Posted July 8, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Dear all, Regardless if it is true or not if Leica R10 is coming and if it will be with full sensor (24X36mm), somebody who is one of the dealers of Leica in Germany and I know him personally wrote me today that current R-lenses might be too small for a larger size chip like 24x36mm. He also mentioned that he has talked to Chairman of Leica, Mr. Kaufman, and he confirmed that R10 will be full frame Digital body with 24x36mm sensor. I don't have much technical knowledge in this regard, I thought I should start this topic to open discussion about it. Honestly, my worry is if Leica R10 comes with NEW Lenses, not the current Lenses. Hoping to get some straightforward comments/logic. Happy photography you all. Photography in Nature - Dhruba Kumar Sapkota Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 8, 2008 Posted July 8, 2008 Hi dsapkota, Take a look here Leica R10 with 24x36mm sensor Can't take current R lenses?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
topoxforddoc Posted July 8, 2008 Share #2 Posted July 8, 2008 If that's true, then the R system is dead in the water (as is Leica). Ignoring your entire base of legacy users would be insane, particularly as you are unlikely to convert many new users, due to the price for the R10 and a whole set of new lenses. Charlie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted July 8, 2008 Share #3 Posted July 8, 2008 current R-lenses might be too small for a larger size chip like 24x36mm. This is simply laughable ... ludicrous, if R lenses are too small for 24x36mm, I guess the EF lenses, F mount lenses can only be used on 4/3 or disposable pocket cameras. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobMac Posted July 8, 2008 Share #4 Posted July 8, 2008 Someone has their signals crossed. 24x36mm sensor = size of 35mm film negative. I and other use Leica lenses on FF Canons. It is possible that if an R10 comes (BIG IF) and is AF (though no new R lenses at Photokina apparently, so....) the older R lenses may not work without a costly adapter. If so, bad decision. IF the R10 is > 24x36, bye, bye value of existing R lenses. Also, trying to compete with $10,000 entry-level Medium Format kits with a marginally larger than FF sensor with any R10s price point would be suicidal. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsapkota Posted July 8, 2008 Author Share #5 Posted July 8, 2008 If that's true, then the R system is dead in the water (as is Leica). Ignoring your entire base of legacy users would be insane, particularly as you are unlikely to convert many new users, due to the price for the R10 and a whole set of new lenses. Charlie I have no idea if it is true but I found also in Dpreview the same story that R10 will be of 24x36mm sensor R10 Leica digital in the pipeline: News Discussion Forum: Digital Photography Review Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlancasterd Posted July 8, 2008 Share #6 Posted July 8, 2008 Regardless if it is true or not if Leica R10 is coming and if it will be with full sensor (24X36mm), somebody who is one of the dealers of Leica in Germany and I know him personally wrote me today that current R-lenses might be too small for a larger size chip like 24x36mm. He also mentioned that he has talked to Chairman of Leica, Mr. Kaufman, and he confirmed that R10 will be full frame Digital body with 24x36mm sensor. I find it very hard to believe that there is any way in which a current Leica 'R' lens wouldn't cover a 24x36 full-frame sensor given that they are computed to provide optimum coverage of that size of image on film. Given the greater lens to film plane distance inherent in an SLR, there are none of the oblique ray problems that afflict the M8 and limit the size of sensor that can be used in that camera. I think that the message has been garbled. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eckart Posted July 9, 2008 Share #7 Posted July 9, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Of course can the R-lenses be used with a 24x36 Sensor, they are built for this size! Although a so called R10 could come with new lenses, autofocus - lenses. Nikon have shown, it is possible to go for autofocus with new lenses by keeping the "old" manualfocus lenses still usable. I cannot understand, why Leica shouldn't be able to do something comparable! cheers, Eckart Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted July 9, 2008 Share #8 Posted July 9, 2008 The size of the sensor is the big question about the R10. If the size is 24x36, the mount will be R, and current lenses will be fully compatible. I have no doubts. Only if the sensor has a larger diagonal the compatibility problems will appear... I would like to know the answer to that key question: What are the dimensions of the R10 sensor? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted July 9, 2008 Share #9 Posted July 9, 2008 Just to put the cat among the pidgeons, I suggest that the sensor could be as large as 36x36mm and still the lenses would cover it as well as 24x36mm, would they not? To my simple brain that would be a little "ground shaking", if not expensive of course. But we know whatever, it will not be cheap. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gakhular Posted July 9, 2008 Share #10 Posted July 9, 2008 It's not just the area of the sensor that matters, it is also its angle of acceptance. Electronic image sensors are more sensitive than film to the angle of the rays hitting the image plane. For the DMR, Leica used offset microlenses, but that couldn't give a high quality image over the full 24X36mm, so they settled for a crop. Pure speculation with absolutely no inside information: I believe the R10 with have lenses with exit pupils far enough from the image plane so that light rays meet the full size sensor with small enough angle so offset microlenses can deliver a "Leica quality" image all the way out to the edges. A fully "telecentric on the image side" design could also be chosen. Such a design would require the back element of the lens to be greater than 43mm in diameter. For comparison, the clear diameter of the rear element of the 35mm Summicron R is about 22mm. Lenses for the 4/3 format approximate this design philosophy (but using a smaller sensor). The size of the sensor is the big question about the R10. If the size is 24x36, the mount will be R, and current lenses will be fully compatible. I have no doubts. Only if the sensor has a larger diagonal the compatibility problems will appear... I would like to know the answer to that key question: What are the dimensions of the R10 sensor? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted July 9, 2008 Share #11 Posted July 9, 2008 Just to put the cat among the pidgeons, I suggest that the sensor could be as large as 36x36mm and still the lenses would cover it as well as 24x36mm, would they not? How do you reach that conclusion? A 24 * 36 sensor requires an image circle diameter of 43.27mm. A 36 * 36 sensor requires an image circle diameter of 50.91mm, which the R lenses will not provide. The height of the image (24mm in a standard FF SLR) is a major determinant of the body size; the mirror has to be pretty much the same size if you want a 100% viewfinder so a camera supporting 36 * 36 would be unacceptably large. If the R10 is coming, I cannot see how it can be anything other than FF; otherwise it will be obsolete the day before it's announced. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted July 9, 2008 Share #12 Posted July 9, 2008 How do you reach that conclusion? A 24 * 36 sensor requires an image circle diameter of 43.27mm. A 36 * 36 sensor requires an image circle diameter of 50.91mm, which the R lenses will not provide. The height of the image (24mm in a standard FF SLR) is a major determinant of the body size; the mirror has to be pretty much the same size if you want a 100% viewfinder so a camera supporting 36 * 36 would be unacceptably large. If the R10 is coming, I cannot see how it can be anything other than FF; otherwise it will be obsolete the day before it's announced. Mark, clearly you are right (& I am wrong!). Because I didn't draw it out, but just visualised the diagonal for both the 36x36 & 36x24 being the same:eek: size. Hopefully my 'creativity' will serve me well in my photography. It sure doesn't work when it comes to numbers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pierovitch Posted July 9, 2008 Share #13 Posted July 9, 2008 How do you reach that conclusion? A 24 * 36 sensor requires an image circle diameter of 43.27mm. A 36 * 36 sensor requires an image circle diameter of 50.91mm, which the R lenses will not provide. The height of the image (24mm in a standard FF SLR) is a major determinant of the body size; the mirror has to be pretty much the same size if you want a 100% viewfinder so a camera supporting 36 * 36 would be unacceptably large. If the R10 is coming, I cannot see how it can be anything other than FF; otherwise it will be obsolete the day before it's announced. A square chip would provide enough coverage for vertical or horizontal 24x36 mm with no vignetting. Why bother with a mirror when you can have HD quality live view. Add a lens or adapt some to allow full 36x36 coverage. Dalsa could supply one big enough at 33Mp DALSA FTF5066C I love the freedom of no NDA Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted July 9, 2008 Share #14 Posted July 9, 2008 If Kodak cuts the 50MP sensor for the new Hasselblad into 24x36 size it will be 24MP FF ... suppose Leica chooses to stay with 135 format, this is most likely going to be the sensor they'll use. Such high pixel density will expose even the slightest focusing error or plain lens focus shift, I'd love to see how they'll deal with back/front focusing with its AF mechanism. By the way, DMR didn't go FF simply because the R8/R9's film plane opening doesn't fit a full size sensor due to its internal construction. It has nothing to do with sensor technology. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted July 9, 2008 Share #15 Posted July 9, 2008 ...one of the dealers of Leica in Germany and I know him personally wrote me today that current R-lenses might be too small for a larger size chip like 24x36mm... Would you mean that current R-lenses might be too small for a larger size chip *than* 24x36mm? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivar B Posted July 9, 2008 Share #16 Posted July 9, 2008 During the Forum Meeting in Germany, Leica confirmed that there will be no new R lenses presented at the Photokina this fall. Given that we feel there may be a new R10, it would be very strange indeed to launch a camera body and no lenses. Furthermore, we know that Leica R lenses perform very well on full frame Canon EOS bodies, and apparently Leica sells some R lenses to Canon owners. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted July 9, 2008 Share #17 Posted July 9, 2008 Would you mean that current R-lenses might be too small for a larger size chip *than* 24x36mm? The lenses must be good enough for 24x36 though... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsapkota Posted July 9, 2008 Author Share #18 Posted July 9, 2008 During the Forum Meeting in Germany, Leica confirmed that there will be no new R lenses presented at the Photokina this fall. Given that we feel there may be a new R10, it would be very strange indeed to launch a camera body and no lenses. Furthermore, we know that Leica R lenses perform very well on full frame Canon EOS bodies, and apparently Leica sells some R lenses to Canon owners. Hi Ivar, Did not get you. You mean the new body R10 will take the current R lenses or not? Or it will not take but there will be new lenses for R10? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted July 9, 2008 Share #19 Posted July 9, 2008 The lenses must be good enough for 24x36 though... Yes they should but i wonder what the OP means exactly. Due to my poor English perhaps. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlancasterd Posted July 9, 2008 Share #20 Posted July 9, 2008 For the DMR, Leica used offset microlenses, but that couldn't give a high quality image over the full 24X36mm, so they settled for a crop. I don't believe this is true. When the DMR was released, Leica themselves said that the size of the sensor was limited by the size of the gate in the R8/R9 body - they couldn't use the whole 36x24 area because of the need to allow space for the wiring along the edges of the sensor. If Canon and Nikon can produce digital full frame bodies that allow the use of existing lenses I see no reason why Leica can't do the same - they have the offset micro lens technique sorted thanks to their experience with the M8, after all. If, for any other reason, the R10 won't accept existing R lenses, they can forget about me as a customer - I'll stick to my R8+DMR. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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