M9 Redux

[RSL]

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NIce shot, Jaap. I'd post one of my own except Andy's already notified me that doing that is forbidden.

[RSL]

You suggested that perhaps your posts were too long for us to digest, yet you are obviously not reading what many of us keep telling you repeatedly. There is no pretense--the M8 is doing exactly what we need it to do. We are very, very satisfied. While there are minor issues we might like to see addressed, we could, and likely will, go on using this camera for many years and be completely happy with it. Why you steadfastly refuse to accept that fact is just completely beyond me.

 

I'm sorry to hear it's "beyond you," but glad to hear your M8 is doing exactly what you "need it to do." But this thread hasn't anything to do with what you need it to do or how well it's doing it for you. It has to do with the prospect of Leica bringing out an M9 incorporating the lessons I hope they've learned from the M8 failures.

 

Since that's the case, I've ignored the outrage expressed by Leicaphiles who feel their decision to buy an M8 is being questioned, and I've passed over the responses that properly would call for the kind of reply Bill Buckley used to use: "I won't insult your intelligence by pretending you actually believe what you just said." And I've passed over responses by those so irritated they've descended into unintelligible gurgling.

 

I'm going to drop out of the thread now because I think I've made my points, which are:

 

(1) I hope Leica comes out with an M9 that corrects the flaws in the M8.

 

(2) Pretending the M8 is just what the doctor ordered when we all know it was full of flaws at launch, and still suffers from many of the original flaws, isn't helping coax Leica into doing the right thing,.

 

(3) If Leica doesn't come out with a reliable successor to the M8, Leica's done for.

 

(4) But the history of the digital rangefinder market makes it unlikely Leica will succeed unless they change their approach and learn from companies like Nikon and Canon. Even then, they may not make it.

 

Thanks to all for your indignation, annoyance, exasperation, infuriation, and irritation. I certainly hope no one held it all in.

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[Dabow]

<sigh> Why does everything have to degenerate into a 'whose camera is better' debate? It's all a bit sad.

 

Frankly, and to address the original post, I couldn't give a good damn about what other manufacturers are coming out with, what new fangled gizzwhats there are, how intelligent internal s/w can remove cabbage from someone's teeth at 50 paces. I buy cameras for what they offer me now and what I intend to use them for. I have a 1Ds3 for studio and landscape work, a 5D for travel and an M8 for street work. All of them serve their purpose in their own way. I applaud Leica for what they have tried to do with the M8 and I hope that their upgrade program comes to fruition. Even if it doesn't I am content with what I have and what it produces, because the end results more than meet my requirement.

 

You're either happy with what you've got or your eternally chasing technology, the latter of which is a never ending road that leads to posts like this.

[stunsworth]

Well, to paraphrase what dozens of people keep saying about the M8, the R-D1 hasn't failed me yet.

 

But everyone _knows_ from reading the internet forums that the rangefinder is probably out of alignment. Since many people have reported that as a problem it _must_ be an issue with your camera must it not? Surely you read all the internet forums, saw that many were having problems, and decided that because of that you'd rather wait until Epson produced the R-D2 that worked correctly? After all what use is a rangefinder camera with a dodgy rangefinder.

 

Wait, you didn't do that did you? Wonder why?

[gwelland]

Hell hath no fury as a man with his R-D1 'dissed. I can almost hear the bugling & battle cry over at RFF and the pending onslaught of slighted R-D1 owners. Hold on a second, I'm a two time R-D1 buyer (and seller) ... let's have no scandalous assertions about how reliable the R-D1 is!

 

Btw, I was 2 for 2 with perfect R-D1's. I've only ever had 1 lock up with 2 M8's owned since Jan 2007 and even this was fixed in the firmware updates a long long time ago. I do think that Epson got a lot of the ergonomics right with that camera - I can see myself picking up another at some point just for old times sake.

 

I do agree with the OP in so far as Leica have inevitably got to continue to update the M8 until such time in the future that an M9 might beckon. Either that or the market for digital M's is going to be saturated, especially at the current prices. I don't see any urgency for an M9 though and it seems like pointless navel gazing if people think that it's going to happen quickly. I certainly can't see Leica rushing to alienate their M8 customers any time soon again, especially as I'm sure that this would be a substantial portion of the customer base next time too.

[diogenis]

However, it is funny that all this thread is based on is rumors, since the OP never actually owned an M8. He only Expresses his will to buy one, but he can't do that, because of a supposedly flawed product (???!!!).

And the paradox is, that unless everyone in Leica are smoking weed or gone mad, if there ever was such a flawed product they would initiate return policies in order to rescue whatever fame is left from 100yrs of Leica shiny history. Nothing of that ever happened however, but Russel keeps singing his tune.

[jaapv]

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Aw, give Russel a break. I get patients daily who are really afraid of endodontic treatment because somebody told them that the aunt of a sister of a neighbour had exactly the same and it was unsupportable painful - Amazement and relief when they discover the true story of painless dentistry. The same would happen to Russel if he ever took the step of using an M8....

[diogenis]

By the way, and since you mention rangefinding, I have this procedure as extremely fun which also shows how precise m8 is :

focus in an object the usual way (try several distances)

when you've found the sweet spot, try moving your head back and forth and notice the rangefinder. This way you get a direct relation of distance (aproximate) and rangefinder missalignment... Dunno if you have done it but it's fun and you also notice how accurate you can focus in various distances

[andybarton]

 

I keep thinking about a story that’s told about “Old Man Coleman,” the guy who started and owned the company that makes camp stoves, etc. A problem turned up in one of the stove models. The company’s second-tier executives were in a conference room, getting ready to brief Coleman on the problem, and discussing ways to “spin” the problem for the press. Coleman walked in and sat down. Someone started the briefing but Coleman stopped him and said, “You mean there’s something wrong with that stove?” The briefer said, “Yes, sir.” Coleman said, “Get ‘em all back and fix ‘em,” stood up and walked out.

 

If Herr Kaufmann were Old Man Coleman all the M8s would have gone back for retrofit by now. On the other hand, Coleman owned the company. He didn’t have stockholders to whom he had a fiduciary duty to keep profits as high as possible. That’s a problem Herr Kaufmann has to face, and I’m glad I’m not in his shoes.

 

 

That's basically what Leica have done. If yours breaks, send it back to them and they fix it. Most M8s don't need anything to be retrofitted, so haven't been sent back.

 

Herr Kaufmann owns something like 95% of Leica shares, and is seeking to acquire the remainder. I would suggest that he is in exactly the same boat as Mr Coleman. If he wants to run Leica at a profit, he can. If he wants to run Leica at a loss he can. It's his money.

[fotografr]

I'm going to drop out of the thread now because I think I've made my points...

 

 

The only points you have made are these:

 

1) You hear (read, absorb) only what you want to hear (read, absorb) and ignore everything else.

 

2) Your suppositions about the M8 are unsupportable. They are not based on any personal knowledge of the product, nor experience with it, nor any particular deep insight on your part.

 

3) Your conclusions about the future of Leica, Inc, are unfounded emotional responses to a situation that exists only in your mind and have no factual basis.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

I must be nuts to reply here.

 

 

I have not read almost any of this but I am sure no one has even hit the real reason to have a M8 and maybe the most important reason . The M8 like the DMR are some of the best files bar none to anything. The D3 and others are great camera's , I actually have a D300 and almost bought a D3 but changed my mind to get a Mamiya ZD Medium format dig. Anyway I have shot the M8 longer and more than almost anyone here and on a professional level and my ONLY camera's for a long time . They never truly failed me except for a few replace battery issues. Now also let me qualify this too I had SDS twice on the same body but this really don't count per say since it was a pretty isolated case with all of that has disappeared . In this case could of happened to any OEM having a weird circuit go bad. Focusing issues and such , let's face facts half of this is user error . Sorry but it's the truth but the other half is a very very fine adjustment focusing cam that can go out. Honestly that is the nature of the beast and has been that case for years with RF camera's bottom line you are looking for it and blowing 100 percent of screen you will see it more . 8X lupes on film will never show it to the degree you can today with computers. Sure the M8 has a few quirks here and there and some things could be made to operate differently and better. It is not the best camera on the market but what your files look like is the most important. You think i would be nuts enough to base my business on a camera that did not produce the best files around. Sorry i maybe dumb but i ain't stupid folks. I know a great file when i see it but I did not buy this for anything else but a great file. The D300 is a sweetie and so is the D3 but there files are not any better , trust me i know the difference here.

 

Now the Nikons and Canons are great tools but in the end they seriously do not compare in image, not much beats Leica glass or for that matter even comes freaking close. I bought all Zeiss glass for my D300 and as nice as they are there still not bringing home a M8 files. You simple have to decide what works for you and not Joe Smith down the street. I have 3 systems now and they all have there place but everyone of them is limited to what they can and cannot do. There is no heaven here guys plain and simple. The M8 is a capable camera that has some quirks about it buy it or not i really don't care but frankly I am tired of hearing it is a piece of shit when i have REAL clients foaming out the mouth over the files. It is what it is and that is the bottom line. My Mamiya will not shoot when i want it too also , it's slower than a bloody turtle in a mud patch. But it produces a great file and if you worth anything to photography and the art of it the bottom line is it is about the file and nothing else. Not speaking about the art of photography but the quality of your files.

 

Have fun.

[fotografr]

Guy, that's a good piece and you make a lot of sense. Unfortunately, the OP would tell you it is irrelevant to his post. See, all he cares about is pressuring Leica to work on an M9 in order to save the company from certain demise if they don't. Somehow, he seems to feel neither the current performance of the M8, nor the acceptance of it by actual users, have any bearing on this course of action. He would also tell you that you are just "pretending" the M8 is okay and that the files look good.

[jaapv]

Guy, I cannot quite agree. It is clear that you go for files and quality, quality and files and don't care two hoots if they come from a Holga or a Leica, in a manner of speaking. Very understandable in your line of work. But a sizeable proportion of users choose for a camera system first, RF or SLR (used to be TLR too, remember, when will we see the first digital TLR ?) And only then go for the best quality they can or will afford. The end result is the same, though....

[fotografr]

Guy, I cannot quite agree. It is clear that you go for files and quality, quality and files and don't care two hoots if they come from a Holga or a Leica, in a manner of speaking. Very understandable in your line of work. But a sizeable proportion of users choose for a camera system first, RF or SLR (used to be TLR too, remember, when will we see the first digital TLR ?) And only then go for the best quality they can or will afford. The end result is the same, though....

 

 

I can't agree with you on this--at least, not based on my experience. I was an SLR user (sorry, but the TLR was way before my time) and was first motivated to pick up a rangefinder Leica because of the reputation of the lenses and resultant image quality. I could be wrong, but my guess is that this is what motivated a lot of current M users to get into rangefinders. I was actually a bit reluctant to get involved with a rangefinder at first because I thought it would be difficult to learn since I was so habituated to the SLR. My first M3ds changed that, and I have loved the M system of photography ever since. It is a perfect fit for my shooting style. But I did come to this from an image quality perspective, and not because I had any particular desire to use a rangefinder camera rather than an SLR.

[jaapv]

It is a personal thing I guess, Brent, with me anyway it was so, and or for instance "street shooters" I daresay it may be. There are many ways to climb a mountain.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Guy, that's a good piece and you make a lot of sense. Unfortunately, the OP would tell you it is irrelevant to his post. See, all he cares about is pressuring Leica to work on an M9 in order to save the company from certain demise if they don't. Somehow, he seems to feel neither the current performance of the M8, nor the acceptance of it by actual users, have any bearing on this course of action. He would also tell you that you are just "pretending" the M8 is okay and that the files look good.

 

 

LOL yea i keep forgetting some of us are blind to quality of file. LOL

 

Anyway folks Leica is going nowhere but up and the demise of leica is flat out many moons away if ever. All I can say is wait till Photokinia which will proof without a shadow of a doubt leica is moving forward. There is plenty of money in the coffers to sustain just about anything. This demise crap is just that and some folks have no clue what money is backing Leica. Does the M8 need improvement of course it does just like any other 1st generation dig. camera But it is funny that leica with the DMR and M8 also being there first camera have such amazing quality of files and better than almost anything out there. Wonder how they did that . Hmmmm

 

Just a case in point. Nikon just released a firmware than recalled it for the D3 , stuff happens and no camera company is immune to it. After all this time with the M8 i only really see one functional issue and that is batteries. The camera is what it is a RF camera and stop trying to make it a D3 or Canon 1dsMKIII with all the bells and whistles. Just because Nikon has this or that does not make it any better just different and is not what leica wants to make. If you don't like it don't buy it and why bother telling everyone why. I only care about what i own in my hands and what it will do for me. But on the same token there are 25 thousand M8's out there and many owners are happier than fly's on horse droppings. As current owners that have a M8 if you don't like it than why go through the misery of owning it buy something else.

[guidomo]

Do we really have to go through this (again)? Why can't we just let everyone use whatever gear he/she wants to use for whatever reason he/she has for that. Get a life, go out and take photos.

 

170 posts on I'm quoting myself. Time to move on guys. This is leading nowhere.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Guy, I cannot quite agree. It is clear that you go for files and quality, quality and files and don't care two hoots if they come from a Holga or a Leica, in a manner of speaking. Very understandable in your line of work. But a sizeable proportion of users choose for a camera system first, RF or SLR (used to be TLR too, remember, when will we see the first digital TLR ?) And only then go for the best quality they can or will afford. The end result is the same, though....

 

Yes i agree one needs to be completely decided on what type of system they want to use. There is only one truly RF camera in production though and we simply can't say what would be better or worse , we simply don't know what can be done. The issue is we compare to a DSLR which is entirely different and works and functions in a completely different way. But at the same token you choose a M8 because you want to work this way and has benefits that you like and want to work in this fashion. It's not perfect but it is not the crap that some let on to be. 25 thousand people can't be all wrong. I'm married and the first thing i would tell a engagement party is this . Everything is a compromise from this day forward get used to it because now it is your life. Frankly no different here because there just is no perfect system and never will be. If there was i would not have 3 different kind.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

170 posts on I'm quoting myself. Time to move on guys. This is leading nowhere.

 

I simply have to agree. These arguments go nowhere and folks will do what is the best for them . As they should but one should not second guess others decisions either.

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[charlesphoto99]

I have to agree that the file quality of the M8 is amazing in comparison. If you don't overexpose that is. I hope we get a true 14-16 bit on the next generation to help with those highlight transitions.

 

I don't know what it is though, but I just find the M8 a very clunky camera to use. Way more than my film M's. When I come back to the M7 it's like "aaahhh..." The M8 is just quite unresponsive for me for some reason. I think it's a combi of the shutter (both noise and release clunkiness) and the poor framing. And something else I just can't put my finger on.

 

The Nikon's and Canon's are workhorses. Yes, quality file is important but not getting the image in the first place is the worst kind of quality one can have! (and the D3 images aren't that slouchy let me tell ya). The M8 slows me down - which is fine (and even best) in some situations but definitely not others. So I feel that having an M8 and a D3 is really the best of both worlds. Now, when they put that D3 sensor in a D300 size body I'll be truly happy.