Vieri Posted April 20, 2008 Share #81 Posted April 20, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) You forgot the ZM 15mm f2.8. True - sorry about that, so we have a 2.8/20 mm FOV on the M8 with no rangefinder coupling (a crippled lens), versus a 2.8/14 mm AF-S on the D3. Without going into the crippled vs no crippled debate, the D3 still goes WAY wider and WAY faster than anything you can put on a M8. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted April 20, 2008 Posted April 20, 2008 Hi Vieri, Take a look here M9 Redux. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
biglouis Posted April 20, 2008 Share #82 Posted April 20, 2008 It seems these "I wish it were" threads are triggered by an insatiable desire to have more than you need. IMO, it just devalues what you have, and leads to the very obsolescence you fear. Camera makers have GOT to love this ... especially at today's prices. So, suddenly a $5,000. piece of gear takes on the luster of failure ... not because it isn't capable of meeting your real needs, but because it can't meet some projected desire to be more than you need ... just for the bragging rights, or some other equally ridiculous reason only a shrink could figure out after 10 years of therapy. Attacking, and justifying the attacking of, a M8 or a D3, or anything else for that matter ... is just a symptom of the illness that's infected photography in general. It's a pandemic virus spread by a host that makes flea ridden plague rats pale in comparison ... the internet. Well put. LouisB Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted April 20, 2008 Share #83 Posted April 20, 2008 I agree that the M8 can take very nice photos when it is working correctly. Just today I was out shooting with my M8 and got some very nice shots. Then the thing locked up. By the time I took off the bottom cover, removed the battery, reinserted the battery, put the bottom cover back on and turned on the power, the bird I was shooting had flown away. I should stick to trees. They do not move. Are not all Leica M8’s created equally? Is the M8 so complicated that making two of them alike is impossible? I also have a lonely Conon 40D with a 24-105 1:4 L IS lens that has always worked flawlessly. I just think Leica has hurt their reputation by releasing the M8 with all the bugs and inconsistent quality it has. Wel,well, you do not seem to have mastered rangefinder-style shooting fully yet.....For birds it takes years of use to get them right. With a (D)SLR it is possible to get a decent image of fast moving subjects straight out of the box. You should have used your Canon. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hacker Posted April 20, 2008 Share #84 Posted April 20, 2008 Wel,well, you do not seem to have mastered rangefinder-style shooting fully yet.....For birds it takes years of use to get them right. With a (D)SLR it is possible to get a decent image of fast moving subjects straight out of the box. You should have used your Canon. I started using the Telyt 135mm f3.4 APO today and was horribly disappointed with my overestimation of what it can do handheld. I treated the lens like a 50 wide open and many shots show camera shake. I really need that 200mm f2 VR lens! Of course, I'm still very much undecided between the 1DS III and the D3, not to mention what the R10 may be. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted April 20, 2008 Share #85 Posted April 20, 2008 True - sorry about that, so we have a 2.8/20 mm FOV on the M8 with no rangefinder coupling (a crippled lens), versus a 2.8/14 mm AF-S on the D3. Without going into the crippled vs no crippled debate, the D3 still goes WAY wider and WAY faster than anything you can put on a M8. Yes but and there is always a but. The Nikon D3 with 14-24 weighs an astounding 2.4Kg. An M8 with WATE comes in at 930 grams. They are so completely different a comparison of use is really pointless. Second but. Is the D3 image quality up to that of the M8? The evidence is gradually surfacing that the D3 produces soft images. Is it AA filter or noise reduction? Jeff Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
diogenis Posted April 20, 2008 Share #86 Posted April 20, 2008 Is this a joke? Do you actually have an M8? My M8 shutter release is the the worst [by some margin] I have ever used, it is far worse even than my long retired 32 year old Olympus OM1. If the shutter release of my M8 had the sweetness of traditional 'M' cameras I would be confident of using it for slow shutter speeds, as it is however, I would choose a Nikon [any modern Nikon] for slow shutter speed work every time rather than an M8. I'll put this politely; the shutter release is crappy. I at least agree with you that it is 'a stupid button', the issue has been well covered here, there is even a thread on 'Fixing the Shutter Release'. .................... Chris No it is not a joke, and yes I do own an M8. At least on my camera, and I suspect in 99.99% of the M8s out there, the button works as it should. That means, you know when to press it (because it has 3 pressure levels) and how much, with the first one not so accurately defined, while the last one, the actual shutter release point is very well defined and also very smooth. I don't understand why the worries that the button might create vibration? It's very controllable. I also assume that it must be very easy for QC to catch bad shutter release buttons. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted April 20, 2008 Share #87 Posted April 20, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) With regard to the shutter button I agree, once you know it, it works well, rewind could be quieter. Jeff Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
diogenis Posted April 20, 2008 Share #88 Posted April 20, 2008 I'm not sure what electronics has to do with it. A camera either is good or it isn't, no matter how many "electronics" it harbors. Yes, Nikon solved the hibernation problem. There's no delay at all when the camera wakes up. One of the things I'm asking is for Leica to learn from Nikon, or anyone else who's solved the problem, how to create the "electronics" that will prevent a picture-losing delay after the camera's gone to sleep. I'll pass by your shutter release comment. It already seems to have been answered. What is your problem with the shutter? Like I said I find it to be extremely precise. Now, to a Nikon or Canon, everything has to do with electronics. Because it is very easy, and because Japanese are good in designing them. Other manufacturers however have solved the problems by using mechanics/optics. Who will tell one is better than the other? Nikon has solved its problems and made a product that is 5x heavier and bulkier than Leica has done. Who is smarter from the two? Who's more potent? Should Leica learn from Nikon, or the other way around -maybe- ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
diogenis Posted April 20, 2008 Share #89 Posted April 20, 2008 With regard to the shutter button I agree, once you know it, it works well, rewind could be quieter. Jeff The shutter button is a revelation. It's smooth like butter, yet you still need to apply a very specific pressure level to activate it and avoid accidents, same pressure every time... I couldnt think of something better, and I suspect it's not much different than older Leica's Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted April 20, 2008 Share #90 Posted April 20, 2008 To arrive at their present level of 'sophistication' Canon have produced 120 digital camera models which includes 19 DSLRs. Nikon have produced 99 digital camera models which includes 18 DSLRs. Both these companies have had a massive amount of practise. Surely Leica have done a very commendable job with the M8 camera. Jeff Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill_murray Posted April 20, 2008 Share #91 Posted April 20, 2008 Jeff, your post No. 61 said it all for me....like a good many others I learned about photography...setting aperture, shutter speed, DOF, walking towards and away from a subject using manual SLR's like Prakticas in the 70's. 35 years on I now have a choice between computers that capture images with industrial precision and a camera that still allows me to take a photograph. Horses for courses. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackal Posted April 20, 2008 Share #92 Posted April 20, 2008 To arrive at their present level of 'sophistication' Canon have produced 120 digital camera models which includes 19 DSLRs. Nikon have produced 99 digital camera models which includes 18 DSLRs. Both these companies have had a massive amount of practise. Surely Leica have done a very commendable job with the M8 camera. Jeff well said Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackal Posted April 20, 2008 Share #93 Posted April 20, 2008 It seems these "I wish it were" threads are triggered by an insatiable desire to have more than you need. IMO, it just devalues what you have, and leads to the very obsolescence you fear. Camera makers have GOT to love this ... especially at today's prices. So, suddenly a $5,000. piece of gear takes on the luster of failure ... not because it isn't capable of meeting your real needs, but because it can't meet some projected desire to be more than you need ... just for the bragging rights, or some other equally ridiculous reason only a shrink could figure out after 10 years of therapy. Attacking, and justifying the attacking of, a M8 or a D3, or anything else for that matter ... is just a symptom of the illness that's infected photography in general. It's a pandemic virus spread by a host that makes flea ridden plague rats pale in comparison ... the internet. here here Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted April 20, 2008 Share #94 Posted April 20, 2008 Thanks Bill, I am pleased someone noticed an important distinction. Jeff Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffreyg Posted April 20, 2008 Share #95 Posted April 20, 2008 I'm using the M8 in situations where autofocus is easily fooled, low lighting is a constant (so automatic features light metering and white balance are not an advantage, f2.0 1/60 at ISO 640), and need to run to different points with a tripod to quickly setup. The images need to be enlargeable to 24" x 36" with fine details of moving subjects. In this situation; Canons and Nikons do a good job but are not great when it comes to enlarging to 24" x 36". In this situation, the M8's lack of anti-aliasing filter, wide open sharp optics, light weight, mechanical lens, rangefinder view are massive advantages for me. Maybe I am getting lazy. Well said. My own interest is in the edge of the shooting envelope - not in the middle. To shoot there, one needs manual focus, light weight camera, precise optics, and good files. The interest is (for me) in how to take fine shots in the most difficult conditions - the ones that require skill and knowledge of the intricacies of photography. Thus, the manual M8 has its place. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lxlim Posted April 20, 2008 Share #96 Posted April 20, 2008 I agree that the M8 can take very nice photos when it is working correctly. Just today I was out shooting with my M8 and got some very nice shots. Then the thing locked up. By the time I took off the bottom cover, removed the battery, reinserted the battery, put the bottom cover back on and turned on the power, the bird I was shooting had flown away. I should stick to trees. They do not move. Are not all Leica M8’s created equally? Is the M8 so complicated that making two of them alike is impossible? I also have a lonely Conon 40D with a 24-105 1:4 L IS lens that has always worked flawlessly. I just think Leica has hurt their reputation by releasing the M8 with all the bugs and inconsistent quality it has. And I just had a 1DmkIII giving focus issues during AI servo, a 1Dmk IIN's shutter died and a 40D back focused, the 24-70f2.8 is suffering from optical misalignment and my M8 SDS on me. All within 10 days but then I'm a pro. Equipment die at the most inconvenient time. Yes, its been a really bad 2 weeks. I use my backup and go back to work. Your 40D and my 10D are good fellas, never failed us in all situations. But I don't really want to use my 10D these days though. So did Canon hurt its reputation with me? Not really. I don't wish it to happen but that is beyond my or anyone's control. All I can do is decide is how I should go about it when something fails. If even a light bulb rated at 1000 hours can blow after a few days service. Equipment failure is something even a client understands. He looks at your track record, if you deliver consistently, you stay. Otherwise you are not respecting your client's time and work he gives you. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lxlim Posted April 20, 2008 Share #97 Posted April 20, 2008 Well said. My own interest is in the edge of the shooting envelope - not in the middle. To shoot there, one needs manual focus, light weight camera, precise optics, and good files. The interest is (for me) in how to take fine shots in the most difficult conditions - the ones that require skill and knowledge of the intricacies of photography. Thus, the manual M8 has its place. Thanks geoffrey. Wished I bought that really expensive Leica 1.25 magnifier. Focussing in dim lighting (concert hall) all day long is really difficult with the 75mm and 90mm. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSL Posted April 20, 2008 Author Share #98 Posted April 20, 2008 To arrive at their present level of 'sophistication' Canon have produced 120 digital camera models which includes 19 DSLRs. Nikon have produced 99 digital camera models which includes 18 DSLRs. Both these companies have had a massive amount of practise. Surely Leica have done a very commendable job with the M8 camera. Jeff Jeff, Apologies in advance but I just couldn't resist this one. Let's suppose there's a carriage company that makes carriages for towns like St. Augustine in Florida where you can take horse-drawn carriage rides. Let's suppose that carriage company finally builds a car. The car is okay when it runs, but it has several problems, the worst of which is that it frequently just stops in the middle of traffic. You have to get out, take the battery out, wait a few minutes, then put the battery back in before you can start up again and go on. Sometimes that doesn't work, so you have to have it towed away to a garage that will take three months to get it back on the road. Would you say that company has done a commendable job since it's their first car? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vieri Posted April 20, 2008 Share #99 Posted April 20, 2008 The nikon d3 is nice but no fast wides it weighs a ton it is an assignment camera not an every day I wonder what the world will bring me camera. David Yes but and there is always a but. The Nikon D3 with 14-24 weighs an astounding 2.4Kg. An M8 with WATE comes in at 930 grams. They are so completely different a comparison of use is really pointless. Second but. Is the D3 image quality up to that of the M8? The evidence is gradually surfacing that the D3 produces soft images. Is it AA filter or noise reduction? Jeff Yes Jeff, agreed, I never stated otherwise - but if you read the whole thread, you will see that my statement was an answer to David's ridiculous statement that the D3 has NO FAST WIDES compared to the M8, which as anyone knows doesn't make much sense. As far as your question re: IQ and sharpness on the D3, the default sharpening in RAW converters (the setting normally sued for reviews) is indeed soft, but the D3 files are full of details than do come up with just a little sharpening. I use 50, 0, 0 in PS at opening (to fix the AA effect) and the same after resizing for the web and they start to sing - YMMV of course. As far as a comparison between the D3 and the M8 being pointless, I agree - two different cameras for different uses. Again, once more, my point was re: David's assertion that the D3 has no fast wides compared to the M8, while it really is the other way round: you can go much wider and faster on a D3 than you can on a M8. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted April 20, 2008 Share #100 Posted April 20, 2008 Jeff, Apologies in advance but I just couldn't resist this one. Let's suppose there's a carriage company that makes carriages for towns like St. Augustine in Florida where you can take horse-drawn carriage rides. Let's suppose that carriage company finally builds a car. The car is okay when it runs, but it has several problems, the worst of which is that it frequently just stops in the middle of traffic. You have to get out, take the battery out, wait a few minutes, then put the battery back in before you can start up again and go on. Sometimes that doesn't work, so you have to have it towed away to a garage that will take three months to get it back on the road. Would you say that company has done a commendable job since it's their first car? How many cars did they make and how many broke down? None of us know that. And does the 'car' offer highly desirable features that other cars dont? Jeff Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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