M9 Redux

[Jamie Roberts]

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{snipped}

If even a light bulb rated at 1000 hours can blow after a few days service.

 

Equipment failure is something even a client understands. He looks at your track record, if you deliver consistently, you stay. Otherwise you are not respecting your client's time and work he gives you.

 

Exactly right: my M8 just developed a stuck pixel problem which will need remapping (just as my 1ds2 did at the same point in its life) and this was within a week of my 50 1.2L Canon losing its front element on a job (!!). Good thing the DMR is still there and the 5d will take a 50 R Lux too

 

I do think, though, that Leica needs to make its service department better. The advent of Pro Service in the US is a good thing (doesn't help me here in Canada though).

[stunsworth]

JThe car is okay when it runs, but it has several problems, the worst of which is that it frequently just stops in the middle of traffic. You have to get out, take the battery out, wait a few minutes, then put the battery back in before you can start up again and go on. Sometimes that doesn't work, so you have to have it towed away to a garage that will take three months to get it back on the road. Would you say that company has done a commendable job since it's their first car?

 

My cars have broken down more times than my M8. Next question.

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[RSL]

Russel, I am quite willing to concede superiority of D3 files of M8 ones,(not that I really care) but the M8 shot he uses in that test is front-focussed cr@p....

 

Jaap, I agree about the shot he used in the test -- both shots for that matter, but I guess the point has been made. I don't care either. Good enough is good enough. The differences we're talking about are so infinitesimal that even cursory postprocessing will overwhelm them before you even leave the raw stage.

 

But I do have to take issue with this:

 

Wel,well, you do not seem to have mastered rangefinder-style shooting fully yet.....For birds it takes years of use to get them right.

 

They guy's camera locked up. Is learning how to unlock a locked up camera considered part of rangefinder-style shooting?

[firststream]

Jeff, Apologies in advance but I just couldn't resist this one.

 

Let's suppose there's a carriage company that makes carriages for towns like St. Augustine in Florida where you can take horse-drawn carriage rides. Let's suppose that carriage company finally builds a car. The car is okay when it runs, but it has several problems, the worst of which is that it frequently just stops in the middle of traffic. You have to get out, take the battery out, wait a few minutes, then put the battery back in before you can start up again and go on. Sometimes that doesn't work, so you have to have it towed away to a garage that will take three months to get it back on the road. Would you say that company has done a commendable job since it's their first car?

 

And let's suppose you are in the market for a really excellent steak. Do you drive to your big-box grocery store, which has everything under the roof for your stomach, as well as lawn furniture, motor oil, flowers for the garden, magazines, drugs for your medicine cabinet, clothing for the children, etc., etc., etc.?

 

Or, do you walk to your neighbourhood butcher, who knows you by name, where you have shopped for years. You know he has the best quality meat (has for years), and you know he will recommend a cut best suited for your needs.

 

Who has the better steak? And who has the better steak for you? Are you the type to drive (cell-phone in one hand, Starbucks in the other) to an all-in-one store, or are you the type who prefers to take your time to purchase meat the old school way?

 

Big-box stores will thrive, and butcher shops will survive. Same with DSLRs and Rangefinders.

[RSL]

How many cars did they make and how many broke down? None of us know that. And does the 'car' offer highly desirable features that other cars dont?

 

Jeff

 

But, like Leica, this company isn't giving out that kind of information. Interesting that they don't. It would seem that if the failure rate is low they'd trumpet that in their advertising the way Leica used to do with their film cameras. Still, knowing that some unknown number of these cars has a tendency to simply stop in the middle of traffic without any prior warning, and that some of these breakdowns can cause you to be without the car for months, even if the car has some "highly desirable features," would you buy it?

[stunsworth]

Still, knowing that some unknown number of these cars has a tendency to simply stop in the middle of traffic without any prior warning, and that some of these breakdowns can cause you to be without the car for months, even if the car has some "highly desirable features," would you buy it?

 

If the alternative was saddling up a tiger then yes.

[RSL]

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errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

 

 

 

 

and as you say its a complete non-starter for street photography, or reportage, photojournalism, war photography or anything that requires a body with little inertia, something inconspicous you can move around a lot and frame with very very quickly

 

A non starter? I'm a professional photojournalist for twenty years now. I always worked with M camera's, and since a year with M8. It's a very good camera, and stories that it is a slow camera are mostly told by those people who cannot watch and see. Besides of sports one does'nt need more speed than the M8 offers. -Roel.

 

Roel, he was stating the reverse of what you surmised. He was saying I said the D3 was a non-starter for street photography. Not only had I not said that, I had posted a picture illustrating a situation where it's great for street photography. In most cases a rangefinder is better, but not always.

 

As far as sports are concerned, depends on which sports. If you're shooting basketball you need the kind of speed you get when you can shoot at ISO 6400 and not have to worry about noise.

[RSL]

The Nikon D3 with 14-24 weighs an astounding 2.4Kg. An M8 with WATE comes in at 930 grams.

 

Jeff, How did you kids get so puny? There are days when I shoot birds on the wing and carry the D3 all day long over my shoulder with a 70-300 VR zoom attached. That combination totals 2.877Kg, not counting the battery. When I'm in Colorado during the summer I spend a fair amount of time in the moutains above Goldfield, Colorado climbing the trails and shooting with a D2X which weighs about as much as the D3. I also carry a carbon fiber tripod on those climbs. Goldfield is at an elevation of 9,888 feet and the trails go up from there at least another 1,500 feet. I'll admit it's not real mountain climbing -- the kind three of my sons did on Kilimanjaro, or that my youngest son did on Everest. But then, I turned 78 last month. If you really want pictures, 2.4Kg is nothing.

[lxlim]

Jeff, How did you kids get so puny? ...... But then, I turned 78 last month. If you really want pictures, 2.4Kg is nothing.

 

Agreed. But then I feel quite puny when my client asked me to do a job that required me to run 2km per day, shoot 1,200 to 3,000 pictures a day 5days a week for six weeks, produce pictures tack sharp enlargeable to 24" x 36", with a 1D mkIII 70-200f2.8 and a 24-70 f2.8 + accessories. If I can do it with an M8, I would gladly do it. Actually thats what I am doing at the moment.

 

I must say I would probably carry more equipment for the pleasure of a Colorado trip Sounds like great fun!

[jimrivers]

Wel,well, you do not seem to have mastered rangefinder-style shooting fully yet.....For birds it takes years of use to get them right. With a (D)SLR it is possible to get a decent image of fast moving subjects straight out of the box. You should have used your Canon.

 

I know how to take shots of birds with a rangefinder camera. I used an M3 many years for just that purpose. One of my best shots was of a flock of turkey buzzers circling a car stopped on a desert highway. The caption was, “These birds know a good thing was they see it”. Unfortunately the folks at Yugo did not understand the shot and I lost that account. I now only do freelance work. I am working on a project I hope to sell to American Airlines. It is called “Airport Seafarers”.

[delander †]

Jeff, How did you kids get so puny?

 

… Goldfield is at an elevation of 9,888 feet and the trails go up from there at least another 1,500 feet. I'll admit it's not real mountain climbing -- the kind three of my sons did on Kilimanjaro, or that my youngest son did on Everest. But then, I turned 78 last month. If you really want pictures, 2.4Kg is nothing.

 

I cant stand heights.

 

Seriously - I am a youngster of 62 not in bad shape (yet). Russell I congratulate you on leading such an active life. I do have heavy cameras/lenses but find the size/weight/form factor of the M8 so liberating.

 

Jeff

[dseelig]

In terms of what I said about the d3 , we are a talking about an eventaul full frame m9 the d3 is not a walk around all the time camera, unless you wabnt to end up with a bad back. . the fast wide primes are discontinued. the 28 1.4 goes for 3 grand on ebay if you can find one. the leica does have a 35 1.4 a voigt 35 1.2 a 28 f2 a voigt 28 f 1.9 f2.8 zooms are not small or light, or fast. I like the look of a wide open f1.4 or f2 lens. . Nikon has no lightweight ff camera, like the 5d. Simply put the d3 is not a street camera, it is an assignment camera. With the m8 and hopefully an m9 ff camera soon , I can walk easily with a 28 f2 a 35 1.4 50 1.4 and a 75 1.4. Try that with a d3, The d3 is a wonderful camera but it is not an everyday street camera. I would love to have the d3 for indoor sports. But for photos on bourbons st in new orleans check my website http://www.davidseelig.com or hollywood blvd or any situiation where I want to shoot life and not have people react to a camera or get that f 1.4 look, give me a leica. PS Again on the street although the lenses are too dam big and heavy you can get by with a 5d type camera and the 35 .14 and 24 1.4 David

[jaapv]

But I do have to take issue with this:

They guy's camera locked up. Is learning how to unlock a locked up camera considered part of rangefinder-style shooting?

 

Ok Russel- Grumpy old man....

[charlesphoto99]

Probably no one will care much but here is my .02 worth

 

I want both the M8 and D3 to be the best they can because I use each for different purposes. That's why I think these threads are pretty useless. Unless one is trying to either make a one off purchase of one vs the other what is most interesting is to see what each is capable of doing on its own merits.

 

 

 

JMHO

 

Woody

 

I agree. I just finished shooting a high paced frantic job in the Dominican Republic with a D3. I could never have done what I just did with the M8 for many reasons (and I don't use zooms on the D3 so not a matter of not having to change lenses). Quickness of review, amazing battery power, the images actually looking as they would look on the display, instant startup times (I can't count the # of shots I've missed due to M8s awful start up) and of course auto focus if and when one needs it. Great customisable UI and the list goes on (auto iso is very cool though not always perfect).

 

But in my small amount of down time I enjoyed carrying the M8 on walks around Santo Domingo taking snaps. That said I might have gotten better exposures with the Nikon and captured some moments quicker. Their matrix metering is second to none. The M8's auto is most often wrong. The M8's files are better sharpness wise, but the D3 is no slouch especially in dim hospital rooms and the such. With proper post processing one may not be able to tell much of a difference.

 

They are very different beasts. But I have to say that for $5k one really feels they got their money's worth with the D3 build and reliability wise. I really can't say the same for the M8. And that's too bad.

[jaapv]

I know how to take shots of birds with a rangefinder camera. I used an M3 many years for just that purpose. One of my best shots was of a flock of turkey buzzers circling a car stopped on a desert highway. The caption was, “These birds know a good thing was they see it”. Unfortunately the folks at Yugo did not understand the shot and I lost that account. I now only do freelance work. I am working on a project I hope to sell to American Airlines. It is called “Airport Seafarers”.

 

You're right. That was a bad post. I apologize.

[RSL]

One of my best shots was of a flock of turkey buzzers circling a car stopped on a desert highway. The caption was, “These birds know a good thing was they see it”. Unfortunately the folks at Yugo did not understand the shot and I lost that account.

 

Guess the Yugo people didn't think that was funny. I'd love to see that one. It sounds like a riot. Have you tried marketing the picture to an ad agency for, say, General Motors or Ford?

[diogenis]

And let's suppose you are in the market for a really excellent steak. Do you drive to your big-box grocery store, which has everything under the roof for your stomach, as well as lawn furniture, motor oil, flowers for the garden, magazines, drugs for your medicine cabinet, clothing for the children, etc., etc., etc.?

 

Or, do you walk to your neighbourhood butcher, who knows you by name, where you have shopped for years. You know he has the best quality meat (has for years), and you know he will recommend a cut best suited for your needs.

 

Who has the better steak? And who has the better steak for you? Are you the type to drive (cell-phone in one hand, Starbucks in the other) to an all-in-one store, or are you the type who prefers to take your time to purchase meat the old school way?

 

Big-box stores will thrive, and butcher shops will survive. Same with DSLRs and Rangefinders.

Excellent post...

That is why we ought to give smaller companies a chance to survive, because ONLY them have better chances to innovate. I can't even imagine how many brilliant minds are eventually suppressed within Canon/Nikons Corporate Saloons, in order to follow their strict corporate lines, preserve chain of command, or to allow for some supervisor keep his position.

Personally, I want a real talented carpenter to build my kitchen furniture from real oak wood instead of that fake coated mdf thing BIG companies use.

And I don't want to be just another victim customer (or guinea pig) trying their latest and greatest camera incarnation #XAIII 299034/abd.

[diogenis]

Nikon and Canon were putting serious electronics into their film SLRs, even before digital arrived.

 

Leica chose another route for their film cameras - just metering, auto if you must. With the M8 Leica have continued on that route.

 

The Nikon D3 and other similar cameras are ruthless picture taking machines. I try and use the Leica M8 as an instrument for making pictures, although through my own lack of talent in this area I rarely succeed, but I enjoy trying.

 

Jeff

Another excellent post...

With all those systems included in a modern dSLR, auto everything from focusing to iso to ev to VR to IS what really is left to the user for composition?

And what are the real differences of a 1DSIII/G3 compared to a Canon's G9, or even better a Sigma's DP1? Why would you say that a 1DSIII is not a P&S? Since from what I read here, mass and bulk is not a problem...

[giordano]

One of my best shots was of a flock of turkey buzzers circling a car stopped on a desert highway. The caption was, “These birds know a good thing was they see it”. Unfortunately the folks at Yugo did not understand the shot and I lost that account.

 

Neat idea, but were Yugos famous for their reliability? Otherwise, I can understand the client's reluctance: too much risk of the pic being interpreted as "cheap foreign car breaks down in bad place".

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[festgriff]

That is comparing photographs, not cameras.

 

Thanks Jaap.

 

Lee