thompsonkirk Posted April 21, 2008 Share #141 Posted April 21, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Thank you Russell, for offering a thoughtful essay. IMO much depends on whether the upgrade policy turns out to be a money-hustle or a real development program. If it's mostly sapphire lcd covers, it's still a Hermes fashion game. When it's quiet shutters + accurate viewfinders + menu-controlled lens settings, I won't worry much about M9. If the M8 sensor were upgradeable as hardware/firmware/software improve, I wouldn't care about sensor size in terms of 1.33 vs. FF; just image quality. Kirk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted April 21, 2008 Posted April 21, 2008 Hi thompsonkirk, Take a look here M9 Redux. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
RSL Posted April 21, 2008 Author Share #142 Posted April 21, 2008 You've missed the whole point of the M8, which is to be able to use the Leica M glass on a digital camera. The sensor is only part of the equation. I don't care how good the sensor is, if the lens has barreling, flare and chromatic aberration problems the camera it is attached to will still just be a glorified P&S. Brent, maybe the posts I've been making are too long to read without eyestrain. As I pointed out in the first post, Epson tried the R-D1 because of all the beautiful Leica glass out there, and I'm sure Leica had that in mind when they came out with the M8. But computer lens design makes it possible to come up with a fine lens in a lot less time and for a lot less money than Leica used to have to spend to get the same effect, and the cost of manufacturing is less because of automated ashperical lens grinding. Why do you suppose Nikon can sell a 24-70 f/2.8 autofocus zoom that's as sharp as of any of Leica's finest primes for $1,700 when the f/2.0 Summicron goes for $2,600? The lenses on high-end point-and-shoots are going to get better too. Good old capitalism and competition will see to it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
diogenis Posted April 21, 2008 Share #143 Posted April 21, 2008 Russell, what a post and an analysis. However I am reading between your lines (wrongly or rightly) that you really would like an M8. For all its niggles it is simply like no other camera. I don't know what the future holds for Leica but I hope they are able continue in their niche, offering a liberating alternative to the big black electronic machines. It is like film, which I see as always being there as a niche in the market for those who want to stand out from the increasingly crowded crowd. My advice which you probably dont want, hot foot down to your local dealer, get an M8, have fun and bring some more soul to your photography. You can still take your D3 up the mountain (that little extra M8 weighs nothing) but I suspect that you might soon opt for the M8 alone. Jeff Exactly on spot... Me too I believe he is confused. He wants to buy it, but something is holding him, or he thinks its a bald move, or the cash is too much. Russel, let me remind you, that there is always a 3 years of warranty in case something goes wrong, just like with any machine... Its not a big deal, and instead of writing endless articles here or carrying around 3kg devices for photos of canyons, go get that thing and be done ffs!!! And if you are still reluctant, why don't you rent one and try out? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jimmy pro Posted April 21, 2008 Share #144 Posted April 21, 2008 The problem with this kind of discussions: Dozens of M8's that perform without hitch cannot alleviate the frustration of one owner whose camera locks up. And by the same token, thousands of M8's that lock up won't deflate the euphoria of dozens of owner's whose M8's perform without a hitch Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted April 21, 2008 Share #145 Posted April 21, 2008 The problem with this kind of discussions: Dozens of M8's that perform without hitch cannot alleviate the frustration of one owner whose camera locks up. I personally feel that Russell hits the nail squarely on the head with his posts - I really recognize exactly what he's talking about, and it just about sums-up my position and my fears for the future of Leica, too. Jaap - as we've briefly discussed in a couple of PMs, the unreliability of (at least some) M8s is a real concern to those of us who were planning to buy the camera. For me at least, the considerable expense has to be weighed against a variety of other priorities - all of which are naturally balanced between hobby and family and work-life. If the camera which was delivered to me then happened to be one of the ones beset by any (or all) of the problems that the M8 has undeniably suffered from, then no matter how many forum members might say 'mine has been perfect' - I would still feel it was a betrayal of my family and other commitments to have 'thrown away' money on a paperweight - even if it's one that can be fixed in the short-term. Those of you saying the R-D1s is not a reasonable option - well so far this notoriously unreliable camera is proving to be a great digital complement to my film cameras, and at less than half the price of the M8, I'm willing to risk it as a paperweight in the future, while I wait for Nikon's limited-edition version of the M-mount digital rangefinder. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSL Posted April 21, 2008 Author Share #146 Posted April 21, 2008 However I am reading between your lines (wrongly or rightly) that you really would like an M8. My advice which you probably dont want, hot foot down to your local dealer, get an M8, have fun and bring some more soul to your photography. You can still take your D3 up the mountain (that little extra M8 weighs nothing) but I suspect that you might soon opt for the M8 alone. Jeff Jeff, Actually you don't even have to read between the lines. I've said it many, many times on these fora and I'm not bashful about saying it again. I'd love to have an M8 -- provided I could depend on it. But people who've been using the camera for a year or more with no problem suddenly find their cameras locking up or showing vertical bands in the pictures. As I said, if I got to the top of one of those hills and the camera locked up when I went to shoot, I'd probably throw it down the nearest abandoned mine shaft. It seems clear to me that the M8 isn't going to get "fixed." That's why I'd like to see Leica build an M9, incorporating the lessons they've learned with the M8. But, I'll say this again too: Pretending that the M8 is just hunky dory isn't going to encourage Leica to get on with a trouble-free camera; at least not as long as they think they can sell sapphire glass lcd covers and "quieter" shutters for astronomical amounts of money. Actually, I think they're going to have a hard time doing that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotografr Posted April 21, 2008 Share #147 Posted April 21, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Why do you suppose Nikon can sell a 24-70 f/2.8 autofocus zoom that's as sharp as of any of Leica's finest primes for $1,700 when the f/2.0 Summicron goes for $2,600? You make that statement as if it is factual. Can you offer bench tests to support it, or is this just your subjective opinion? Also, consider that there are several other factors that must be put into the mix to determine lens quality: color rendition, flare resistance, contrast, barreling, chromatic aberration. You need to compare these, as well as sharpness. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted April 21, 2008 Share #148 Posted April 21, 2008 Brent, Russell's just bought an expensive new toy and he's very pleased with it. That's the subtext to this thread. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotografr Posted April 21, 2008 Share #149 Posted April 21, 2008 It seems clear to me that the M8 isn't going to get "fixed." That's why I'd like to see Leica build an M9, incorporating the lessons they've learned with the M8. But, I'll say this again too: Pretending that the M8 is just hunky dory isn't going to encourage Leica to get on with a trouble-free camera; at least not as long as they think they can sell sapphire glass lcd covers and "quieter" shutters for astronomical amounts of money. Actually, I think they're going to have a hard time doing that. This statement is just plain naive. Leica have the same profit motive as any other company. Do you think they need us to tell them to work on new camera designs? I can assure you, there is an M9 on the drawing board right now. Pretending that the M8 is just hunky dory isn't going to encourage Leica to get on with a trouble-free camera. You suggested that perhaps your posts were too long for us to digest, yet you are obviously not reading what many of us keep telling you repeatedly. There is no pretense--the M8 is doing exactly what we need it to do. We are very, very satisfied. While there are minor issues we might like to see addressed, we could, and likely will, go on using this camera for many years and be completely happy with it. Why you steadfastly refuse to accept that fact is just completely beyond me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanhulsenbeek Posted April 21, 2008 Share #150 Posted April 21, 2008 Brent, Russell's just bought an expensive new toy and he's very pleased with it. That's the subtext to this thread. I just hope he will not start a third thread on this subject. If he does I shall have a serious vacation away from this forum Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotografr Posted April 21, 2008 Share #151 Posted April 21, 2008 Brent, Russell's just bought an expensive new toy and he's very pleased with it. That's the subtext to this thread. Yes, I think you nailed it. And apparently part of that is trying to denegrate all other cameras in the process. I wonder if he has started a similar thread on the Canon Forum? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
psss Posted April 21, 2008 Share #152 Posted April 21, 2008 Jeff, Actually you don't even have to read between the lines. I've said it many, many times on these fora and I'm not bashful about saying it again. I'd love to have an M8 -- provided I could depend on it. But people who've been using the camera for a year or more with no problem suddenly find their cameras locking up or showing vertical bands in the pictures. As I said, if I got to the top of one of those hills and the camera locked up when I went to shoot, I'd probably throw it down the nearest abandoned mine shaft. It seems clear to me that the M8 isn't going to get "fixed." That's why I'd like to see Leica build an M9, incorporating the lessons they've learned with the M8. But, I'll say this again too: Pretending that the M8 is just hunky dory isn't going to encourage Leica to get on with a trouble-free camera; at least not as long as they think they can sell sapphire glass lcd covers and "quieter" shutters for astronomical amounts of money. Actually, I think they're going to have a hard time doing that. this is really getting a bit strange....."provided i could depend on it"....."the m8 isn't going to get fixed".... i would really like to have an extra body, just so i could send you one to shut you up....go to a dealer...pick one up...play with it..buy it....it is just as likely to give you any problems as any other appliance, toy , car,.... repeating something over and over does not make it more valid....if someone is on the fence about the m8 and reads this thread, they would never buy one...mostly because of somebody WHO DOES NOT OWN ONE keeps bringing up problems and needed fixes and shortcomings.... you make it sound like the m8 is a completely useless piece of trash that should never have been made.....and all the people who bought it are complete idiots.... by the way: the m8 has kept its value inthe used/demo market much, much better then any DSLR by any maker....a used m8 is still about 3500 and up on ebay...i believe the original list price was 4500?.....of course the people buying are all leica idiots with too much money.... right now...today...there is no digital capturing device (in the same price range) that can compete with the m8 in terms of file quality at base iso....if there is, please let me know, i will buy it....i have tested and owned pretty much everything (unlike other people, who make their judgement based on what they read online), so i would really like to be enlightened...really.... all the af, settings, speed, faster, 3D,....conveniences passed leica by decades ago, the F4 was from a different planet then the m6, so why should we compare the m8 to the D3 in this regard....i would never shoot birds with a m8....i would not transport horse manure in the truck of a sedan either...but that's just me.... i have shot with my 2 m8 bodies for 6 and 4 months now....i shoot between 200 and 2000 frames a shooting day, studio to desert....yes, i have been able to lock it up a couple of times when shooting tethered too fast....nothing compared to either of my phase backs which did the same much more frequently and nothing compared to the hass H system, which just locks up...a known thing....all of which are considered top of the line, pro equipment and cost a little more then the m8.... i also remember shooting tethered with my 1dsmkII...that was a lot of fun....the canon software useless and with C1...well...check the phase forum about the stories..... maybe this is what you have a problem with? that we are getting used to having problems the old mechanical cameras just did not have? well they also did not give you the quality, control, flexibility and 1000 files (MF quality) at the end of the shoot with the knowledge that you got it....all at a much cheaper price (for 120/220 6x4.5...incl. processing considering 1$/frame)..... get a m8, don't get one, wait for the m9, don't wait...what ever you want to do, please remember that people really only post problems....i don't come here after a day of shooting and say: all good again today, great shots, just wanted to let you guys know...just in case you were wondering...the m8 did not show any problems again... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted April 21, 2008 Share #153 Posted April 21, 2008 Russell, When the M9 arrives it will be using technology that is available now. You will probably want to wait a year or so just to make sure there are no hidden foibles (there will be). When you are ready to buy its technology will be 2 years out of date compared to the ruthless picture taking machines which by then will have developed remote controlled motion systems and artificial intelligence so you can send them off to take pictures on their own. Somehow I dont see a Leica M anything in your future? Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSL Posted April 21, 2008 Author Share #154 Posted April 21, 2008 Russell, When the M9 arrives it will be using technology that is available now. You will probably want to wait a year or so just to make sure there are no hidden foibles (there will be). When you are ready to buy its technology will be 2 years out of date compared to the ruthless picture taking machines which by then will have developed remote controlled motion systems and artificial intelligence so you can send them off to take pictures on their own. Somehow I dont see a Leica M anything in your future? Jeff Jeff, But that kind of ignores the fact that I use an R-D1 which is even more out of date. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotografr Posted April 21, 2008 Share #155 Posted April 21, 2008 Jeff, But that kind of ignores the fact that I use an R-D1 which is even more out of date. Have you considered starting an RD-1 Forum? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted April 21, 2008 Share #156 Posted April 21, 2008 But computer lens design makes it possible to come up with a fine lens in a lot less time and for a lot less money than Leica used to have to spend to get the same effect, and the cost of manufacturing is less because of automated ashperical lens grinding. Why do you suppose Nikon can sell a 24-70 f/2.8 autofocus zoom that's as sharp as of any of Leica's finest primes for $1,700 when the f/2.0 Summicron goes for $2,600? The lenses on high-end point-and-shoots are going to get better too. Good old capitalism and competition will see to it. Hmmmm! I haven't used a zoom which has the (lack of) distotion characteristics of an M lens. I have chatted to a friend who is a lens designer. The problem is not necessarily designing a lens but building it economically and with assured quality control. If you don't think this is correct, ask yourself why Nikon are now producing a full frame format camera )better late than never) - its probably because producing lenses adequate to 15 MPixel+ DX format is likely to become too expensive to build economically. Moulded asperic elements are all very well but assembly tolerances are something else. Capitalism and commercialism are no doubt strong incentives, but they can't always overcome physics and physical realities. I think that I am correct in saying that Leica have always assembled lens systems to high tolerances and I suspect that their lens prices reflect this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted April 21, 2008 Share #157 Posted April 21, 2008 Jeff, But that kind of ignores the fact that I use an R-D1 which is even more out of date. With a RD1 your halfway there Russell, sell it and get an M8, its far more reliable and of course the image quality is in a different league. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSL Posted April 21, 2008 Author Share #158 Posted April 21, 2008 With a RD1 your halfway there Russell, sell it and get an M8, its far more reliable and of course the image quality is in a different league. Jeff Well, to paraphrase what dozens of people keep saying about the M8, the R-D1 hasn't failed me yet. Actually, it'll fail somewhere down the line, but I don't take it places where I'm liable to get a once-in-a-year photograph. When you're doing street photography, good enough image quality is what you need. IQ isn't the problem. To quote Cartier-Bresson: "I am constantly amused by the notion that some people have about photographic technique – a notion which reveals itself in an insatiable craving for sharpness of images. Is this the passion of an obsession? Or do these people hope, by this trompe l’oeil technique, to get to closer grips with reality? In either case, they are just as far away from the real problem as those of that other generation which used to endow all its photographic anecdotes with an intentional unsharpness such as was deemed to be 'artistic.'" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJP Posted April 21, 2008 Share #159 Posted April 21, 2008 I am constantly amused by the notion that some people have about photographic technique – a notion which reveals itself in an insatiable craving for sharpness of images. Is this the passion of an obsession? Or do these people hope, by this trompe l’oeil technique, to get to closer grips with reality? In either case, they are just as far away from the real problem as those of that other generation which used to endow all its photographic anecdotes with an intentional unsharpness such as was deemed to be 'artistic.' If I recall correctly the issue at the time was whether photo's could be art at all. One of the excuses in favor of photography was that the images were not the closest approach to the original image anyway - so art was still possible ............................................ This is what HCB is referring to and this is not the right forum to discuss these things but the concept as a whole is interesting. Excessive attention to quality of focus and excessive attention to artistic qualities both are something he worries about. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted April 21, 2008 Share #160 Posted April 21, 2008 .i would never shoot birds with a m8....i would not transport horse manure in the truck of a sedan either...but that's just me.... Why not ? Sorry Jaap... put it up in the Photo section, please. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.