The beginng of the end for Leica

[Guest stnami]

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NIce cover Larry....but your Jiminy Cricket ploy will be uncovered

[jrc]

Let me just add one additional point about the political manipulation of statistics. Adjusted for inflation the annual median earnings of young US full time employed males since the 1970's until today have been flat or have declined by about 15% depending on the studies you look at. But when measuring inflation energy, healthcare, home prices and food are not included in the official measurements of inflation in the US. So the numbers are accurate if you don't need gas or heating oil, food, healthcare or housing

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You have to be careful about that, though, too. For example, only in the last two days, when the price of a barrel of oil went over $100, did it reach near the record price of oil during the late 70s and 80s. Also, a house is not a house -- the average house now is a lot more house than it was in the 70s and 80s, and the equipment inside the house is a lot more intricate. The cost of healthcare is also interwoven with the fact that we get lots more of it now -- people now routinely live for years with diseases that would have killed them in months thirty years ago, and those extra years are *extremely* costly.

 

The one thing that has gone to unconscionable levels in the US is college tuition.

 

"A currency is like a countries stock, while in the short term it might fluctuate up or down for a variety of reasons over the long term it reflects the health and growth potential of a nation's economy"

 

This *is* a short-term fluctuation so far. And, as the Wall Street Journal argues day in and day out, the fluctuation is really a matter of policy, a policy which the Journal doesn't like. The fact is, the American middle class likes a little inflation -- 4 percent or so. It makes such things as house-buying cheaper (for rational people) over the term of a mortgage, and notably so when equity can be used like a bank account.

 

As for the euro, when the inevitable happens, and Europe goes into a recession, the central bank will have two choices: hold the line, which will make the recession that much more severe and unemployment will spike; or greatly ease, which means inflation will spike and the Euro will drop.

 

We'll see what happens. My feeling is that the bank will initially try to hold the line, and then the Germans and French will get in a spit-fight.

 

JC

[Guest Robert Belasario]

As a statistician (a historian to, but thats beside the point) I can actually make anything look like anything anybody wants.... and also be able to back it up with "statistical reasoning"

 

Applying statistics to any case, fact or quaetion is balancing on the margin of academical belief at all times. In clear cases statistics is absolutely unnecessary for the case will be clear. It's when planned manipulation comes in that statistics are applied (other than academcal research that is, and even then)

 

I am approached with questions like "are you able to statiscally find a foundation for the following unclarity..." of course I am, I'm a statistician..."tell me the outcome you are looking for" and I will be able to do it....

 

Obviously this outcome is only apparent for 90% of the population the message is meant for .... this is why I serve politicle parties (well only one actually) with my (part-time) services and consequently making more money than their political leaders on a yearly basis. People making use of my services want power, I can assist in providing this, I'm just in there for the money and enjoying all these foolish games and asking myself when will the world grow up and realize what it's at ....

[Ecaton]

Damn, I'm getting hit here aswell... I'm from the south too...

What's wrong with us "southern boys"?

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Back to reality,

Euro VS Dollar is interesting. I care about the Dollar Euro exchange rate because, it means my holidays to the US will be cheaper!

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But to be "frank" the US economy is (exchange rates aside) in a bit of a depression right now, correct?

 

Europe is doing well, but I think it's soon downhill here too.

 

Some parts of the US industry is doing exceptionally well right now due to the exchange rate, for exmaple Boeing, isn't it?

 

GM isn't doing so good...

 

Wouw, didn't know that there is a Helsinki in Bavaria.

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[bayerische]

The Bavaria part comes from my love to BMW

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Helsinki -> South of Finland

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No need to specify south of what as earlier said by another poster...

[Thomas Edwards]

At the root of those numbers have to be causes. One for certain is the laughable quality control that's plagued Leica since the 70's. And ever since the advent of the internet the packs of rabid apologists have been making matters worse by supressing and denying any mention of the problem. A case in point are the M8 shutter failures which even though reports continue to come, the denials of it being widespread continue to drone on. I agree with those brave souls who've spoken up and believe it's the probable real reason for the so-called upgrade. Both of my M8's shutters sprung (blades bent) and I got a "shutter error" and had to send them to Germany. But of course I'm not a forum big shot so I am easy to brush off. But here's a very recent posting from Mrs. Tina Manley, well-known and highly-respected Leica photojournalist:

 

LINK

 

who believes her M8's shutter wore out after only 15,000 actuations:

 

LINK-2

 

...can sympathize, but who has heard of high end products that have not had problems, especially electronic gear...people have this unreal expectation that when they purchase top-end gear they will have flawless products...as in high-strung f1 cars, products that are high-perf oriented have minimal tolerances and tho counter-intuitive frequently break-down...and so long as leica continues to abide by its well-regarded warranty program, albeit with non-standard turn-around times, there should be 'no harm - no foul'...perhaps the early m8 purchasers were in fact guinea pigs, but the opposite would imply the death of the m8 project, to the detriment of the legion of leica loyalists and the newly converted...imho...

[ChrisC]

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As a statistician ........ I'm just in there for the money .......

Robert - You may well be able to fool most people most of the time. But you haven't fooled me - you Tart!

 

............. Chris

[Guest Robert Belasario]

Robert - You may well be able to fool most people most of the time. But you haven't fooled me - you Tart!

 

............. Chris

 

you might not realize it but that statement all depends who you vote for, and why :-)

 

 

and being called a tart isan absolute new sensation for me .... if you could only tell me the meaning of the word

[Speenth]

you might not realize it but that statement all depends who you vote for, and why :-)

 

 

and being called a tart isan absolute new sensation for me .... if you could only tell me the meaning of the word

 

As a Brit' I'm truly looking forward to Chris's efforts to adequately define 'tart'!

 

A wonderful challenge Chris - go to it!

[gmaurizio]

As a Brit' I'm truly looking forward to Chris's efforts to adequately define 'tart'!

 

A wonderful challenge Chris - go to it!

 

According to wikipedia, Tart may mean:

Tart, a pastry dish, usually sweet in flavor, with an open top

Tart card, cards found in phone booths that advertise the services of call girls

The Tart, a British satirical newspaper

Tart (film), a 2001 film

Tart (Tokyo Mew Mew), a fictional character in the anime and manga series Tokyo Mew Mew

Flying Tart, an independent record label based in Nashville, Tennessee, United States

Clos de Tart, a grand cru vineyard in the Côte de Nuits

Tart may also refer to:

A promiscuous woman or a woman who dresses in a sexually provocative way, or a prostitute. See also Tart with a heart.

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:confused:

Tartness, a term used to describe a sharp, sour or acidic flavor

[Speenth]

According to wikipedia, Tart may mean:

Tart, a pastry dish, usually sweet in flavor, with an open top

Tart card, cards found in phone booths that advertise the services of call girls

The Tart, a British satirical newspaper

Tart (film), a 2001 film

Tart (Tokyo Mew Mew), a fictional character in the anime and manga series Tokyo Mew Mew

Flying Tart, an independent record label based in Nashville, Tennessee, United States

Clos de Tart, a grand cru vineyard in the Côte de Nuits

Tart may also refer to:

A promiscuous woman or a woman who dresses in a sexually provocative way, or a prostitute. See also Tart with a heart.

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:confused:

Tartness, a term used to describe a sharp, sour or acidic flavor

 

All correct, but none comes close to the subtlety behind this British term of endearment (though promiscuity is good). 'Brazen hussy' might just about cover it ... but then again, no.

[jamriman]

Its a niche market, kinda like an apple PC. Leica M series will survive IMHO.

[miami91]

Its a niche market, kinda like an apple PC. Leica M series will survive IMHO.

 

Yes, but Apple very nearly perished in the mid to late 90s. It took a visionary CEO and a significant departure from their core product line (the iPod) to breathe new life into the outfit. I don't know that either of these is a viable option for Leica.

 

Jeff.

[george_b]

Its a niche market, kinda like an apple PC. Leica M series will survive IMHO.

 

But what about Customer Service to exisiting Leica users who have finite patience and wallet, 'next year' they may well buy into another system and also those about to jump in to an M8 but may well look else where after reading all this? Apple Macs (P/Cs) have many devotees and in fact are superior to P/Cs in imaging which is why many professionals prefer them, if they wer'nt none would be sold to those whose living depends on them.

[stunsworth]

Apple Macs (P/Cs) have many devotees and in fact are superior to P/Cs in imaging...

 

Really? In what areas?

[gIzzE]

If Leica could bring out a compact like the new Sigma, that also uses a 1.5 crop sensor and took M lenses they would be onto a winner.

 

The new Sigma is is $799 and is let down by the f/4.0 lens imho, if Leica tweaked this body to make it M mount compatible they could charge $1299 make a fortune and make a fortune again selling M glass. Plus once people had a collection of M compatible lenses the next progressive step would be the buy a proper M, again making Leica more money.

 

Stop fecking around knocking out Panasonic cameras with a Red Dot on the front and charging people 2x the price, get something out there that no one else is doing, that is why the M8 sold so well, if someone else had brought out a digital rangefinder at the same time as Leica for 1/3 of the price the M8 wouldn't have sold half as well.

Bringing out something that no one else offers is always a winner.

[jamriman]

Apple adapted, now that they have agreements with microsoft (panasonic with Leica). Leica will and is adapting like Apple. I just bought my first mac. Its just a matter of time when my PC goes on the auction block. BTW anyone interested in a PC with Photoshop, MS office and lightroom, will get a nice deal on one with all the trimmings. Not a BS Dell either, one which I built myself with quality parts. Give me a pm if interested.

[george_b]

Really? In what areas?

Memory management when using Photoshop, it is appalling on a P/C where it does not fully release memory after a function or Photoshop itself is closed - where the only recourse is to re-boot.

[andybarton]

For those of you who wish to discuss the state of the US economy, rather than Leica, the posts have been moved here:

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/barnack-s-bar/47320-us-economy-extracted-another-thread.html

[ChrisC]

I'm truly looking forward to Chris's efforts to adequately define 'tart'! A wonderful challenge Chris - go to it!

 

Oh dear, I do make work for myself.

 

I did not have in mind a savoury baked pastry with an open top.

 

More like promiscuity with open trouser fly; a trader of sexual favours for financial reward. Before the more sensitive among us feign indignation, bear in mind that I called Robert a Tart after his self definition - I stopped short of calling him a Vinay. I suspect Robert of entering into the spirit of the forum to have a little fun at our expense. Good for him.

 

................... Chris