Update from PMA

[Guest guy_mancuso]

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Guy when I got my Black M8 back from NJ the shutter release was/is like silk. Still has the detents for the 3 stops but much smoother then the chrome body.

 

Well the new shutter one was like silk, made me immediately say i will do it. Trust me I am not trying to sell this to anyone but i was going to wait but after playing with it, I was sold on the upgrade. Guys that shoot low light and need to be quiet will be impressed.

[andybarton]

I'll pass on the 1st option... All I'm looking for is better ISO and a full frame, so i'm hoping option 2 will be a sensor change. It seems there is still no confirmation as to whether they can or will offer a full frame for the M8. I realize that they are "investigating the possibility" but I would really like a straight answer if I am going to empty my bank account this week.

 

 

No one will be able to tell you this, most certainly not Leica, and definitely not Guy. Not until Leica have this all done and dusted on the mules/beta bodies, and know that they can offer it as a commercial upgrade.

 

That gives you the choice of buying this week and enjoying your camera until a future potential retrofit FF sensor is available, or continuing with the camera that you currently use until then.

 

The source that broke the upgrade route before anyone else outside Leica themselves even knew about it, was speculating seriously that a new, larger shutter box was a distinct possibility, even if a FF sensor isn't available next time round

 

I know which I would choose, if I were in your position

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[Guest guy_mancuso]

Agreed Andy . FF will be a certain challenge to Leica to get it in the box. They tried originally if we all remember back when the M8 was announced many moons ago. This is not a gimme

[lxlim]

Thanks, Guy. Appreciate the time and efforts that went into this.

 

Just a few thoughts on the program.

 

I believe the M8 is the quintessential leica manual rangefinder body. The M8 leaves out many of the features I take for granted as necessary in an automatic camera for example easy to use exposure compensation, auto focus, etc but used as a manual camera, its quite a joy.

 

Here I believe Leica has done the right thing. The M8 embodies what worked well for a manual exposure rangefinder concept that has been refined for decades. All that is needed is to concentrate on those qualities that take the manual exposure rangefinder concept further.

 

I'm still very new to the rangefinder but it seems to make sense not to change a successful model which has become a niche but still a valuable niche. So I suspect when they mentioned PERPETUAL they meant it.

 

This program frees Leica up to concentrate on other photographic tools that will advance Leica's position. Possibly the M9 would be a total automatics everything horror to the M traditionalist but If they were to build the M9 to be completely outside the mold of the classic rangefinder, they will need to do it in a viable manner. Maybe Guy would get his electronics frames, others would get the requisite ergonomic handgrip and maybe a build in thumb support. I just don't think the M9 will look remotely like Ms 1 to 8.

 

Just my 2 cents worth.

 

Alex

[JChance]

It seems the community is split down the middle on if it is physically possible to put a FF in the M8. Many believe it possible, many not. Time will tell.. patience dear boy... I guess if the sensor was upgraded for noise and image quality (but still with the crop) I wouldn't rue my purchase too much. I would hate to buy now though and see an FF M9 announced at Photonika as many have touted... but personally I can't see and M9 anytime soon.

[Daniel Ortego]

...So if done correctly by the user ...

 

Based on your assessment, owners of say; less than 18-months may be better served to ride out their warranty until the upgrade offers more value? If that’s the case, then I see your point and that does make good business sense. The other type of owners may consist of “got to have it” or those who can appreciate the benefits of the noise/vibration reduction and LCD protection.

Regards,

[Shootist]

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It seems the community is split down the middle on if it is physically possible to put a FF in the M8. Many believe it possible, many not. Time will tell.. patience dear boy... I guess if the sensor was upgraded for noise and image quality (but still with the crop) I wouldn't rue my purchase too much. I would hate to buy now though and see an FF M9 announced at Photonika as many have touted... but personally I can't see and M9 anytime soon.

It's NOT whether a FF sensor will fit in the M8, more then likely it would FIT. The case is the angle the light hits the sensor from wide angle lenses. The angle is to great and you will get bad vignetteing.

Until there is sensor technology to correct for this you will not see FF in the M digital series.

[MvMaltese]

A basic upgrade I'd like to see (from Leica or third party) would be a weather seal kit. A little extra somethin' for outdoor protection.

[TEBnewyork]

Based on your assessment, owners of say; less than 18-months may be better served to ride out their warranty until the upgrade offers more value? If that’s the case, then I see your point and that does make good business sense. The other type of owners may consist of “got to have it” or those who can appreciate the benefits of the noise/vibration reduction and LCD protection.

Regards,

 

While I can see the benefit of LCD protection seems a waste to upgrade the LCD cover if it doesn't have any scratches.

[andybarton]

It's NOT whether a FF sensor will fit in the M8, more then likely it would FIT. The case is the angle the light hits the sensor from wide angle lenses. The angle is to great and you will get bad vignetteing.

Until there is sensor technology to correct for this you will not see FF in the M digital series.

 

This is the reason why the M8 has a cropped sensor now and Leica weren't able to deliver FF from Day 1. The technology isn't there...yet. Maybe tomorrow, maybe some day.

 

However, that doesn't prevent them from installing a new shutter, with a larger box, which will accommodate a FF sensor at some time in the future now. Just so that things are ready when sensor technology catches up with the wishlist.

[ptomsu]

Agreed Andy . FF will be a certain challenge to Leica to get it in the box. They tried originally if we all remember back when the M8 was announced many moons ago. This is not a gimme

 

Well, I am very sure that FF will come soon. I bet they have the solution already running in test and it will depend on how these tests go if they will announce FF (either as upgrade or new M version) at least till end of 2008.

 

I am desperately waiting for this.

 

Not sure where the sweet spot really is in today's sensor design with regards to MP and High ISO. Maybe 14MP and ISO 6400, maybe 18MP and ISO 6400 ???

 

For me meanwhile a high ISO quality like in the D3 is more important than extra high resolution, since you can get so much more and better results if noise levels are extremely low.

 

But their idea of different upgrades also opens nicely the way to offer a high resolution version with less ISO sensitivity, for those who need this option.

[andybarton]

While I can see the benefit of LCD protection seems a waste to upgrade the LCD cover if it doesn't have any scratches.

 

It's to prevent future damage.

[andybarton]

Well, I am very sure that FF will come soon. I bet they have the solution already running in test and it will depend on how these tests go if they will announce FF (either as upgrade or new M version) at least till end of 2008.

 

I am desperately waiting for this.

 

Don't hold your breath.

 

It depends upon whether they have solved the angle of incidence / micro-lens problem.

 

No one wants a FF sensor that vignettes so bad you have to crop out so much it leaves a 1.33 crop equivalent...

[stunsworth]

Not so bothered about a full frame sensor, in practice I've found that the lenses I have are fine, but better high ISO performance would be nice.

 

After saying that full frame _and_ better high ISO would be nice <grin>

[chris_tribble]

After saying that full frame _and_ better high ISO would be nice <grin>

 

Yes, yes...

[waterlenz]

Guy, thank you for the report!

 

I suspect that at some point dealers will be able to order M8s with already installed 'updates'. It will be needlessly expensive to buy two shutters, two sensors, etc. Maybe the 1200 Euro price for shutter 'B', etc., includes a deduction (i.e. trade-in value) for the return of the original shutter 'A' , etc. to possibly be reused (especially if they do this with unsold cameras). There is also the cost for extra shipments, labor, taxes, etc.

 

It would be best to order and receive exactly what you want, which is the case with autos. One can buy a given model car, PU etc., with or w/o AC, AT, etc., as well as different engines, at least here in the US. For example when I bought my PU I wanted manual hubs (for the 4WD of the front wheels), a stick shift, and an extended cab. So I walked away from dealers that were pushing AC (here in AK!) and AT. Like with vehicles this will require knowlegeable buyers so they will know what to buy. At least some of the updates will have pros and cons - the shutter for example.

[waterlenz]

Not so bothered about a full frame sensor, in practice I've found that the lenses I have are fine, but better high ISO performance would be nice.

 

After saying that full frame _and_ better high ISO would be nice <grin>

 

 

I think that FF would lead to better high ISO performance ala Nikon D3. In fact that seems to be about all we hear of the D3! Issues that plagued earlier FF dSLRs such as vignetting, color shifts, etc., are hardly mentioned with the D3.

[waterlenz]

I wonder if the R10 will also be upgradeable? Sensor, AF whatever....

[Guest]

Thank you very much Guy for all your hard work at the show and passing the information back.

Brian

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[rbaron]

Guy, thanks very much for the very informative and helpful investigation and report.

 

--Bob