M8 stays in hotel room; shoots in Japan with Canon G9

[adan]

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Nick - Kudos for coming into our lions' den! Seriously!

 

I won't rehash my critique of your critique of etc etc etc.

 

I AM looking forward to trying the rumored "small" FF companion to the Nikon D3.

 

Unlike some tribal cultures, camera owners tend to slaughter their own tribe first.

[johnalex141r]

Leica M8 at about f8, CV35mm 2.5. ISO 160, not colour corrected.

 

Leica M8, 100% crop, on cooktop dials.

 

G9, iso 80, not colour corrected. Equivalent picture framing (as close as I could get) to the M8.

 

G9, 100% crop, on cooktop dials.

 

I'll let you make your own conclusions.

 

JohnS.

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[Maggie_O]

What WB did you use on the M8?

[Guest stnami]

yawn

[Rona!d]

From what i saw so far, one thing is obvious: BOTH are still VIDEOcameras

(well, the M8 is a stillvideo-cam, the G9 can also be a movie-cam, which is more typical for a videocamera)

 

btw., i would prefer an M!

[anupmc]

...

 

And lastly, the G9 is cutting-edge technology compared to the M8. A small, 12MP, IS, 35-210mm camera, capable of working in almost ANY lighting or subject conditions, that produces RAW file: that's cutting-edge. Not necessarily in any one area, but as a package. And that's what counts. It offers greater artistic satisfaction in the context of travel photography, because it puts much less camera (and camera fiddling) between the subject and the photographer, which allows for better photographs, imho.

 

....

 

Nick, have you tried the GRDII? Based on your needs/preferences, I'm pretty sure you'd chuck your G9 if you spent any serious time with the Ricoh

[pascal_meheut]

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Leica M8 at about f8, CV35mm 2.5. ISO 160, not colour corrected.

 

Leica M8, 100% crop, on cooktop dials.

 

G9, iso 80, not colour corrected. Equivalent picture framing (as close as I could get) to the M8.

 

G9, 100% crop, on cooktop dials.

 

I'll let you make your own conclusions.

 

Focusing point is not on the cooktop dials with the M8. The G9 is saved by its higher DOF.

And WB has not been done with the M8.

 

My conclusion: you do not know how to use a camera like the M8 at all and, yes, you should stick to P&S because they will give YOU better results.

[wlaidlaw]

Nick, have you tried the GRDII? Based on your needs/preferences, I'm pretty sure you'd chuck your G9 if you spent any serious time with the Ricoh

 

Anup,

 

Why? I am thinking of changing my GX100 M8 back-up camera for a G9. I am not flaming you, I know why I want to change to a G9 (better AF, faster RAW write time, no lens hood, so that other family members would use it, better IS, quieter higher ISO files, longer zoom). The only advantages of the Ricoh I can think of, are wider lens, smaller physical size and maybe nicer construction and higher quality lens. What are your reasons for changing a G9 for a GRDII?

 

Wilson

[anupmc]

Wilson, basically what I felt was significantly better IQ (more so than the GX100) for about the same cost and functionality. I haven't owned the G9, but gave it a spin before choosing the GRDII.

 

Anup,

 

Why? I am thinking of changing my GX100 M8 back-up camera for a G9. I am not flaming you, I know why I want to change to a G9 (better AF, faster RAW write time, no lens hood, so that other family members would use it, better IS, quieter higher ISO files, longer zoom). The only advantages of the Ricoh I can think of, are wider lens, smaller physical size and maybe nicer construction and higher quality lens. What are your reasons for changing a G9 for a GRDII?

 

Wilson

[larry]

I don't get what the flap is all about, there's no question that the G9 is a better point-and-shoot than the M8.

 

Larry

[johnalex141r]

Focusing point is not on the cooktop dials with the M8. The G9 is saved by its higher DOF.

And WB has not been done with the M8.

 

Auto WB on both.

 

I was more interested in the noise than on the focus.

 

Focusing was on the cooktop dials, but, because the M8 was sitting on another counter, manual focusing was extremely uncomfortable (I'm not a registered contortionist)

 

My conclusion: you do not know how to use a camera like the M8 at all and, yes, you should stick to P&S because they will give YOU better results.

 

Hmmm - with over 10,000 photographs sold world-wide by 2 of us in the '70s and '80s; 99% of them with Canon SLRs and lenses (the others with medium format rangefinders), maybe I should stick to DSLRs and use the G9 (or equiv) for those times when a DSLR is just not convenient.

 

The questions are then: when does the M8 really shine? How many photographers in the world can use that extremely narrow band to perfection? 10? 5? None??

 

Obviously Nick Devlin is not the only one wondering that, too.

 

JohnS.

[wattsy]

My conclusion: you do not know how to use a camera like the M8 at all and, yes, you should stick to P&S because they will give YOU better results.

 

What a load of crap.

 

The idea that Leica M users have (or should have) photographic ability and/or knowledge beyond the unwashed masses is simply laughable.

[Dan States]

Leica M8 at about f8, CV35mm 2.5. ISO 160, not colour corrected.

 

Leica M8, 100% crop, on cooktop dials.

 

G9, iso 80, not colour corrected. Equivalent picture framing (as close as I could get) to the M8.

 

G9, 100% crop, on cooktop dials.

 

I'll let you make your own conclusions.

 

JohnS.

 

The G9 image seems to have the benefit of proper processing, while the Leica shot is either jpeg from camera or has been sharpened and noise reduced needlessly. Did you use C1? I've never seen a result like this from the M8 unless I used Adobe Bridge or some other poorly matched Raw processor. Turn off noise reduction, sharpening and run it through the raw processor Leica recommends and see what you get.

 

Of course in the end if you like the G9 better than good on you and hopefully you make many fine photographs!

 

Best wishes

Dan

[Guest tummydoc]

What a load of crap.

 

The idea that Leica M users have (or should have) photographic ability and/or knowledge beyond the unwashed masses is simply laughable.

 

But it sells a lot of Leicas

[Dan States]

What a load of crap.

 

The idea that Leica M users have (or should have) photographic ability and/or knowledge beyond the unwashed masses is simply laughable.

 

 

Well, they SHOULD have, but they typically don't. Hate to say it but the number of "My prints from wallmart look like crap", "My jpegs look funny", "Gee doesn't the Noctilux make a great picture of the potted plant in my back yard" and "I wish my Leica had focus confirmation" threads over the years indicates that many Leica owners are just folks who had an extra $6K to blow on a toy.

 

This is not to splash poo on everyone! There are many here and about who have tons of experience and have worked up the long path of trial and error to learn photography before they bought a Leica. But folks, the M8 is NOT A CAMERA FOR BEGINNERS, rich or otherwise. Even folks who have used film cameras for years should probably take their first dip in digital with a Nikon or Canon DSLR and learn to max out those cameras before they waste (YES, WASTE) their money on a camera that will not make better images for them.

 

You'll note the absence of these kinds of treads on Nikon forums where folks seem a bit more interested in how to work their cameras and not wether they are able to pee farther than the other guys camera.

 

A great exercise would be to buy a G9, use it for 12 months and find every way possible to get the best image quality you can out of it. THEN try a pro grade camera and see what you find.

[johnalex141r]

The G9 image seems to have the benefit of proper processing, while the Leica shot is either jpeg from camera or has been sharpened and noise reduced needlessly. Did you use C1? I've never seen a result like this from the M8 unless I used Adobe Bridge or some other poorly matched Raw processor. Turn off noise reduction, sharpening and run it through the raw processor Leica recommends and see what you get.

 

Hi Dan;

 

(thanks for the nice message - please don't read the following as an argument, ok?)

 

Heck, I like the M8 image better - the white balance is not a problem, as that can be easily corrected. It has less noise, and has less CA. I just happen to have an M8, and my wife a G9, so I thought I'd take some "quick pics" like in the Luminous Landscape article. You know - there's a picture in front of me - take it, like, right now.

 

Ok, the 4 images:

 

1) Leica M8, RAW format, read in to Apple Aperture, NO adjustments. written to jpg for display here. (sharpest of 3 images was chosen)

 

2) Apple "screen capture" of a segment of the Aperture screen with the "full image" button pressed.

 

3) G9 image run through "dcraw" to output a TIFF file. This was imported into Aperture. (Leopard does not support the Canon G9 image format yet). NO adjustments. Exported as per the Leica M8 jpg (step 1) above).

 

4) G9 screen capture, as per 2) above.

 

Look, I know that it's not a "Sean Read" test. It was just me coming home after work, taking a picture that was in front of me; using a granite counter top to rest cameras on, using whatever I had available. (isn't that what Leica photography is all about??)

 

So, absolutely, these are not studio shots; pre-arranged, lighted properly, with multiple takes to get the absolute best images. Sure, I could have bracketed focus and aperture more on the M8; purchased the best Leica or Zeiss 35mm lens; choppered in Sean Read or Guy for the weekend, but I didn't. It's just me, trying to emulate what to me is a real world experience, but with 2 cameras.

 

Yes, focusing would have been easier, had I used a tripod, rather than trying to focus the M8 when it was sitting on a granite counter top. Although there are a tripod or three close by in this case, I don't normally carry one with me wherever I go.

 

And, yes, I realize that in many cases, a P&S is a great, convenient camera for my wife and I to have with us - much of the photography I do now is just "fun" stuff.

 

You know - I might re-do these shots, with tripod, and subdued daylight lighting this afternoon. Not really my style of shooting, but it would be interesting to see what the differences are.

 

JohnS.

[Jamie Roberts]

What a load of crap.

 

The idea that Leica M users have (or should have) photographic ability and/or knowledge beyond the unwashed masses is simply laughable.

 

Um, no--not a load of crap at all. To use a mostly manual rangefinder effectively, you DO have to have knowledge beyond the regular photographic experiences these days!

 

The M8 ain't a cellphone cam. It's not a point and shoot. Nick reminded folks that a complex camera has its downsides when you don't want to think about the camera. Duh. Yawn even (thanks Imants)

 

Why is that controversial?! LOL!!! It's a tool, folks--and if you don't know how, or don't want to know how, to use it, or get good results out of then, then that's ok--use something else that works for you!

 

But saying you need the same knowledge to shoot a G9 "effectively" that you do an M8 is as ludicrous as saying that if you could use a kodak box brownie you automatically knew how to use an SLR or TLR (yeah, I know there were Brownie TLRs too).

 

Having said that, I'll repeat that beyond the operational knowledge both pre- and post pressing the button, it's the eye and mind behind the camera that makes most of the difference. The rest is mainly hair-splitting or convenience (though fun to rant about )

[Guest guy_mancuso]

My only comment is. LOL

 

Why the hell would you leave a 5k camera in a Hotel room for the maid to steal.

 

That part just not compute to me. LOL

 

 

Honestly these little P&S camera's are getting better every day , no question about that and on some levels proof more than what you pay for them. i just have a hard time choosing one of these over a M8 and even one lens like a 28 cron to just go have fun. Okay i know i am one of those that go for the juggler every time when you shoot but to me the P&s comes out when you are just feeling lazy on a trip which is great and totally understand it and you maybe going to a dinner and stick it in your pocket but to actually compare them to a leica with all there wonderful glass you just have to scratch your head a little. I think most folks are talking feature sets and AWB stuff but image quality i would grab the M8 without thinking. I also think folks forget what a M8 is, it is a working camera that you have to make it go. It does NOT have a start button. You have to pull the rope to make it start. I think one has to think what each camera 's intended purpose is and how to pull the best out of it.

 

Now on my forum i have a bunch of Ricoh fans and D lux fans and the images are just outstanding. But folks don't think of them as replacement for a M8 or a DSLR either. There another tool to get a certain look or style and to free them up from bulk, weight and price and something to take everywhere they go. The G9 looks like a nice camera though and for it's intended purpose.

[Maggie_O]

Yeah, what Guy said!

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[4season]

Periodic reality-checks are a healthy thing!

 

I occasionally look at my own M8 outfit and wonder about selling it all on eBay, buying a 2nd Ricoh camera, and using the rather substantial difference to fund more leisure/photo time for myself.

 

The hardware is improving so much that I think that technically "perfect" photos, and seemingly impossible feats are quickly becoming the norm and hardly get a second glance.