Why do you use Visoflex with M11?

[SrMi]

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With the launch of M-EV1, it would be good to summarize when and why people use the Visoflex on their M11, or when M-EV1 could work better than a rangefinder camera.

This comes to my mind:

- Close-focusing
- LPC
- Lenses (+hoods) that block the OVF (e.g., some CV)
- Optimize exposure with a histogram
- Precise framing
- Wide-lens framing and better long-lens framing.

The Visoflex tilts, but it is a bit of a cumbersome contraption. That is why I use the LCD more often than the Visoflex, but I do not like using LCDs, except for the bright, large iPhone Pro Max display.
 

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[Alexander108]

Good thread.

I agree with your assessment of the Visoflex. When I got my M10-M in July I immediately bought a preowned 020 (rather cheap). I traded my Q3 for an M11 a bit later and bought the Visoflex 2 for this one as well.

• Close-focusing: I almost never use it for focusing. If I need to nail the focus I use the RF. With the discussion of the RF coming up I now start experimenting with focusing using the Visoflex. My experience is: it's a bit cumbersome. But that might be because the resolution is just too low.
• LPC: I don't use Leica Perspective Control (I assume you don't mean License Plate Capture). If I need to compensate perspective, I do this in post in LR.
• Lenses (+hoods) that block the OVF (e.g., some CV): Not really an issue.
• Optimize exposure with a histogram; Exposure optimizing is a big thing for me. I really love to see immediately if the exposure is too far off. The histogram is extremely important to me. Plus the clipping / blinking highlights. I am so used to this workflow that I used with my Canon R5 and then the Q3 (even the DL8) that I find myself using the Visoflex only and not use the RF if it is mounted. 
• Precise framing / Wide-lens framing and better long-lens framing: With my preferred 24mm lens framing the shot properly is already challenging with the RF. It's an approximation. With the Visoflex it works. I also love my Voigtländer 15mm lens where live view (hate it) or the EVF are mandatory. With my 35mm/50mm/90mm lens I am rather comfortable with the RF frame lines.
   
• I often use the Visoflex to check the sharpness of my images. Blow it up on the screen and then look through the EVF to get an idea if they are sharp. This is easier for me than using the screen as I have to grab my reading glasses that I don't use when shooting. 

I sometimes use and enjoy the tilting mechanism on the Visoflex. I would immediately trade my M11 to the M-EV1 if they had introduced a tilting screen and IBIS. But without that there is not good enough a reason to replace my M11 plus Visoflex. I will now more deliberately observe my shooting with the M. In mid November I will attend a huge conference in Barcelona and stay a few days after that to do some street photography. I will bring the M10-M only (plus a few lenses) with the old Visoflex 020 which helps me to capture GPS.

[SrMi]

9 minutes ago, Alexander108 said:

Close-focusing: I almost never use it for focusing. If I need to nail the focus I use the RF. With the discussion of the RF coming up I now start experimenting with focusing using the Visoflex. My experience is: it's a bit cumbersome. But that might be because the resolution is just too low.

But you cannot use RF for close focusing (<0.7m). The number of CF lenses is increasing.

10 minutes ago, Alexander108 said:

LPC: I don't use Leica Perspective Control (I assume you don't mean License Plate Capture). If I need to compensate perspective, I do this in post in LR.

Since you are using Adobe, I think you are missing out. Leica Perspective Control is very helpful, can be applied automatically at import (or modified), and speeds up image evaluation. I use it regularly with Ms, SLs, and Qs, but not on every image, of course.

 

[jakontil]

I had the visoflex 2 when it was released, considering to pair it with my M10r back then though it took a little longer to make it compatible through firmware upgrade, sold my old viso 020 

however it didnt last long… close focus could live with lcd when needed, i mainly shoot through RF, plugging in and out the viso was cumbersome

i never consider a perfect framing, unless when im shooting landscape.. the viso might help, but i still relying on the LCD which is okay.. im also a hoodless guy, no lens interfere my viewfinder, even on a noct 0.95, but probably im more focused on the focusing patch and for wide and super wide angle lens.. i prefer my external OVF , especially when doing street photography 

seeing the ev1, i think viso 2 aint bad at all

[jakontil]

..

Edited Friday at 09:12 AM by jakontil

[Stuart Richardson]

I do use the EVF on my M10M all the time (almost to my own chagrin). For me it is almost always about precise focus near infinity. I find that most of my M lenses are not tack sharp at the hard stop at the end of the lens. They are often at their sharpest just shy of it, and difference at 100% can be significant. Often the rangefinder is slightly unclear at this level of nuance. Since I mostly do landscape and often wind up making very large prints, this is important for me. I have noticed, however, that the OVF is still spot on at medium and close distances. I have checked a number of times and the RF seems ok, but when it comes to maximizing sharpness with lenses like the 75mm and 90mm APO M lenses and APO Lanthars that I mostly use, the EVF is the best tool to get there. 

All that said, I prefer using the OVF when I can. If I only wanted to use an EVF, I would use the SL2, which is a much nicer experience for EVF. The main advantage of the M in this context is that it is compact and it is a monochrome sensor. 

Overall, the EV1 does not appeal to me, as it is feels like a loss of functionality compared to a traditional M. The M11 with Viso does what the EV1 can do, but the EV1 cannot do what the OVF M11 does. I think Leica's big mistake was being too tentative. If they were going to do this at all, I think they needed to give users a real benefit: for example, a faster way to achieve focus in the EVF like focus confirmation or some kind of virtual RF. I know Jono talked about them needing phase detect for focus confirmation, but plenty of versions of this sensor come with it (including the SL3), so I imagine they could have done it if they dared to try. But it seems like an accountant's decision not an engineer's. 

Edited Friday at 09:37 AM by Stuart Richardson

[Keith (M)]

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On M10M & M11 for when I use my 35, 60 & 90mm R lenses and also for close-focus (0.5m) with VM 35mm f1.2.  Otherwise (even with 135mm APO) I prefer the OVF.  Having read Jono's and other reports on the EV1, for me it has no appeal whatsoever.

Ps - and with my 21mm SEM.

Edited Friday at 10:02 AM by Keith (M)

[kiwidad]

The visoflex goes on if I use the 75 lux. Also handy if your trying to be discrete.

Non coupled r lenses are great with the viso.

[ynp]

For my fast Sonnars and Sonnetars with their focus shift and field curvature the Visoflex is the best. I don’t need it for my wife lenses because I can’t pre visualize the results pretty well. Tilting of the Viso is godsend when I use my M on the Actus Mini ; not the obvious choice of à camera for the Cambo, but the M is light and I already have it. 

[Steve Ash]

I very much like the question. When I got my M11 Monochrom aside to my M10 I deliberately decided to not get an EVF. While all above applications are very valid I intended to get back to processes when I was working with my M8.2. Somehow I feel that I had been more in a kind of flow taking photos with the rangefinder only at that time. The more you utilize the RF the less you will need the EVF. 

Having said that it is not excluded that an M EVx will enter my set of M‘s when I feel it would provide me another suitable alternative or user experience. 

[SrMi]

Two more reasons to use EVFs:

- R zooms

- never shot with lens cap on 🤣

Edited Friday at 10:41 AM by SrMi

[Alexander108]

vor 1 Minute schrieb SrMi:

Two more reasons to use EVFs:

- R zooms

- never shot with lens cap on 🤣

The latter is a BIG ONE 😂

[Jon Warwick]

1 hour ago, Stuart Richardson said:

I do use the EVF on my M10M all the time (almost to my own chagrin). For me it is almost always about precise focus near infinity. I find that most of my M lenses are not tack sharp at the hard stop at the end of the lens. They are often at their sharpest just shy of it, and difference at 100% can be significant. Often the rangefinder is slightly unclear at this level of nuance. Since I mostly do landscape and often wind up making very large prints, this is important for me. I have noticed, however, that the OVF is still spot on at medium and close distances. I have checked a number of times and the RF seems ok, but when it comes to maximizing sharpness with lenses like the 75mm and 90mm APO M lenses and APO Lanthars that I mostly use, the EVF is the best tool to get there. 

All that said, I prefer using the OVF when I can. If I only wanted to use an EVF, I would use the SL2, which is a much nicer experience for EVF. The main advantage of the M in this context is that it is compact and it is a monochrome sensor. 

Overall, the EV1 does not appeal to me, as it is feels like a loss of functionality compared to a traditional M. The M11 with Viso does what the EV1 can do, but the EV1 cannot do what the OVF M11 does. I think Leica's big mistake was being too tentative. If they were going to do this at all, I think they needed to give users a real benefit: for example, a faster way to achieve focus in the EVF like focus confirmation or some kind of virtual RF. I know Jono talked about them needing phase detect for focus confirmation, but plenty of versions of this sensor come with it (including the SL3), so I imagine they could have done it if they dared to try. But it seems like an accountant's decision not an engineer's. 

I use the Visoflex a lot too (on my M11 and M11M), mainly for landscapes and other images when i can slow down. Not for precise focus near infinity (but you've inspired me to look more into that!), but for precise composition and precise exposure (i find using the histogram to know exactly where the highlights are landing is really useful for me, especially on the Monochrom).

With that in mind, I was really interested in the new camera, and have already tried it out. I think I was hoping for something more, for example, just like you comment - hoping for a faster way to achieve focus with help from a focus confirmation or virtual RF. The Visoflex (and likely the new camera) would probably be brilliant for me for landscapes, city photos ....things that are controlled and provide me with time to take the image. But as it stands, I not sure now that i could jump 100% away from an M11 and into just the new EV, ie, it's like a Visoflex built into the camera (ie, automatically zooms when turning the focus ring), but for some subjects - eg, quick images of people etc - i now think the rangefinder would be quicker because it's binary (the rangefinder either indicates it's focused, or it's not ....but with a Visoflex or new camera in their present form, when zoomed in and turning the focus wheel, one is more likely to oscillate back and forth to achieve precise focus. It's less fluid than a rangefinder for some uses).
 

Hence, for now, i agree with you - the M11 with Visoflex (whilst less elegant with the Visoflex bolted to the top, and with slightly lower resolution) does what the EV1 can do, but the EV1 cannot do what the OVF M11 does. One could probably also argue that an SL does what the EV1 does (with adapted manual lenses, or even L Mount lens in manual focus), but the EV1 cannot do what the autofocus could also do if desired on an SL camera. Finally, I almost always use lenses that are 50mm+ focal length, and EVFs can work quite well there. Although i don't shoot with wide lenses, i did try a 28mm lens on the new camera ...admittedly a tricky one for an EVF, the f5.6 28mm reissue Summaron .....and was really uncertain where "true" focus was landing.

 

 

Edited Friday at 10:57 AM by Jon Warwick

[LocalHero1953]

I have always found automatic magnification of manual focus lenses to be a pain - the slightest touch on the focus ring and your careful composition disappears, and you must reassemble it after returning to full view.

For those who have tried it, does the M-EV1 repurposed frameline selector make it easier to quickly check focus in magnified view then return to full view? I.e. magnify and return just for the short period you choose, only when you want it? Is it different functionality to assigning another button to magnification (I don't have a digital M, so I'm guessing a button can be assigned to this, as with the SL and Q).

Does it take a push on the lever to enter magnification and another push to exit? Or does the view stay magnified only as long as you're holding the lever off-centre?

 

Edited Friday at 12:01 PM by LocalHero1953

[Alexander108]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb LocalHero1953:

I have always found automatic magnification of manual focus lenses to be a pain - the slightest touch on the focus ring and your careful composition disappears, and you must reassemble it after returning to full view.

Well, I switched Focus Aid permanently OFF on my M10-M and M11. On the M10-M I use the front button to switch magnification on/off. On the M11 I use the button next to the shutter do the same. I understand this is the same with the M-EVF just that you can use the lever on the front to do that easily. 

Edited Friday at 12:07 PM by Alexander108

[pedaes]

To answer the question, I use it only for slow macro work using extension tubes. My widest lens is a 24mm and I have a Viewfinder for that (but usually guess). 

[LocalHero1953]

16 minutes ago, Alexander108 said:

Well, I switched Focus Aid permanently OFF on my M10-M and M11.

I rarely do MF on digital cameras, but when I do (Q3 43, SL3-S), I do just the same.

[SrMi]

39 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I have always found automatic magnification of manual focus lenses to be a pain - the slightest touch on the focus ring and your careful composition disappears, and you must reassemble it after returning to full view.

For those who have tried it, does the M-EV1 repurposed frameline selector make it easier to quickly check focus in magnified view then return to full view? I.e. magnify and return just for the short period you choose, only when you want it? Is it different functionality to assigning another button to magnification (I don't have a digital M, so I'm guessing a button can be assigned to this, as with the SL and Q).

Does it take a push on the lever to enter magnification and another push to exit? Or does the view stay magnified only as long as you're holding the lever off-centre?

 

With M-EV1, I have turned off automatic magnification and set the level push to the right to turn the magnification on and off. While I am holding the lens with my left hand, I use the thumb of my left hand to quickly turn magnification on and off.

I wish I could turn on/off magnification and focus peaking at the same time.

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[Stef63]

I use Visoflex on M11 and M10M when/with :

• Leica M lenses wider than 28 mm (24, 18, 14)
• Leica Noctilux 50 mm
• Leica lenses longer than 50 mm (75 lux, thambar, 90 APO)
• R lenses (100 macro, 180, 280)
• Non RF lenses  (Minolta MD, Canon FD, Pentax Takumar)

So basically — almost always except when I’m using my Leica 28, 35 or 50 mm lenses. 

[Tailwagger]

3 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I have always found automatic magnification of manual focus lenses to be a pain - the slightest touch on the focus ring and your careful composition disappears, and you must reassemble it after returning to full view.

A simple half press on the shutter button gets you back to full view... so zoom never never bothered me much.  I do however find setting and resetting the FP a bit cumbersome however. 

Another value for the EVF I've not seen mentioned is the tilt/level indications.  Very use when eliminating unintended distortion when dealing with wider lenses. Better than relying on PC IMO.