Please suggest a good way to test the 50mm Summicron F2 v5 to get a good idea of its characteristics

[SimonV]

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I'm not new to photography, but very new to the M-system, having recently gotten my first body, the M240. I also got the Voigtländer Color Skopar 50mm F2.2, which seems like a great lens. But while it's great, getting into the M-system I feel I have to try out Leica lenses too, so I purchased a used 50mm Summicron v5. I've been testing and comparing them to each other a lot, as well as to the Nokton 50mm 1.2, but it's turning out to be a real challenge choosing only one (I can't afford to keep all of them). The Color Skopar is so light and sharp and I can't really find any fault in it (although I would love a little more light). But from what I've heard, the Summicron should be great as well. 

At the moment, it seems to me the lenses I've tested behave as following:

Color Skopar: Sharpest wide open, good bokeh. Closest focusing distance 50cm which is a big plus. Very light, which is a great plus, but maybe doesn't fit the heft of the M240 quite perfectly. Fits the look of the silver M240 almost perfectly. Picking up the camera feels very easy compared to with the other lenses. 

Summicron: Feels very good, hefty and solid. The aperture ring though has some play both to the left of the F2 marking as well as to the right of the F16 marking. Is this normal or will it need CLA soon? Bokeh is slightly smoother than the Color Skopar. Not quite as sharp wide open, stopped down to F2.2 it's almost as sharp as the Color Skopar, but not quite. But the colors out of the lens seem a bit more pleasing, not something I think can't be easily corrected in software though? Someone also said it's closer to a T2.4 than a 2. But I have the least time with this lens so far, hence the question in the title. 

Nokton 50mm 1.2: Quite soft close up at F1.2 and F1.4 (I enjoy shooting close up too), better at F2 but still not at the level of the other lenses. Quite sharp wide open at longer distances though. Heavy, about the same weight as the Summicron but feels a bit less balanced on the body, this might be its biggest downside, as well as not looking quite as at home on the body as the other two lenses. Has the obvious benefit of light gathering and smoother bokeh even at longer distances. Bokeh at F2 is a bit smoother than the Summicron at F2.

Unfortunately, my time with the lenses is running out and I have to choose which to keep and which to return. I just received the Summicron and have very little time with it before I have to make my decision, so I'd be grateful for some tips to really see where it shines. I'd find out myself through testing otherwise if I had the time. Are there certain areas where it's especially different from other lenses? Certain aperture ranges, colors, contrast and so on? 

Would love to hear your opinions and experiences on these lenses, but especially the Summicron. It seems like a well regarded lens.

[S/W]

With today's selection of good lenses with the same focal length, it is certainly not an easy choice to find the right one. I have various original 50mm lenses from Leica, and I particularly like to use the 50mm Summicron (V) when traveling. 
I can't comment on the 50mm lenses from Voigtländer, but I can really recommend the Summicron M 2.0/50 (V). To give you an idea of the lens's performance, I've included two sample images (shown several times before) at apertures of 4.0 and 2.0. Perhaps this will help you make up your mind:

f/4.0

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Leica M11 * Leica Summicron M 2.0/50 (V) * ISO 64 * f/4.0 * 1/320 sec * CaptureOne * St. Barbara * California * USA

 

f/2.0

Leica M11 * Leica Summicron M 2.0/50 (V) * ISO 64 * f/2.0 * 1/250 sec * CaptureOne * Amboy * Mojave Desert * California * USA

Edited October 13 by S/W

[SimonV]

Thank you, those shots are gorgeous. Especially love the colors of the first one and the crispness of that blue car!

[jaapv]

Only one way to test: take plenty of photographs and decide which ones, in general, you like best. Actually my favourite is the Nokton 50/1.5 ii. 

[UliWer]

1 hour ago, SimonV said:

I've been testing and comparing them to each other a lot … but it's turning out to be a real challenge choosing only one

That is all you can expect from „testing“ and comparing. Ifyou don‘t use lenses which are 80 or more years apart it is hard to see the differences. They all use glass and optical design is no whitchcraft. 

So my proposal is to look - perhaps most important - at the price tag and then for „secondary“ qualities: how is the handling (focus throw, setting f-stops, blockage of rangefinder, availability of hoods and filters, do you know where to repair the lens etc.).   

 

[lct]

I'm not good at comparing lenses of different apertures. I own both and prefer the Summicon on portraits for the simple reason that i prefer f/2 there. Now the Skopar is hard to beat at f/2.8 and above if you need a small lens and/or if you shoot closeups. The Skopar is also less prone to flare when strong light sources such as the sun stand outside the frame. Also the Skopar allows to shoot at about 20cm subject distance together with the Leica macro adepter. The rest is subjective and only you can know if you prefer modern lenses like the Skopar to more classic ones like the Summicron. Happy snaps

[GFW2-SCUSA]

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Good question!  I read all the interesting posts about lenses and what folk find using them and wonder to myself, "How come I don't know what my lens does or doesn't do.?" Then I think, "am I pleased with the picture?"  If so, great, if not why not? Usually its not the lens but my missing something. So, the question SimonV asked comes up - what is a good way to determine the character of a lens?  As for the 50 Scopar, I have it and really am impressed with it. For reasons unknown I've never been thrilled with the Leica Summicrom V5 or 4 that I have. I really like the 50mm Voigtlander Lanthar - but the little Skopar 2.2 if a delight. 

 

[TomB_tx]

The old saying was that you can't go wrong with a Summicron, and every Leica owner should have one. I got my first in 1969 and it was my main lens for about 50 years. With Digital bodies I switched to the Summarit f2.5 in both 50 & 35 mm for their tiny size and identical fast handling. Th 35 is esceptional, and the 50 was very much a smaller and slightly slower Summicron - from the lens optics diagrams. The 50 has similar central-veiling flare to the Summicron in certain lighting conditions as noted above. I'd say that's the only weakness in these two lenses. I also have a ver 5 and images have more "snap" - but the flare tendency is still there.

I recently got the new Color Skopar 50mm f2.2, and find it to be wonderful for my use: like a tinier version of the 2.5 Summarit that has less flare. It has a bit more corner vignetting, but that doesn't bother me - it can be effective in many pictures. Especially for the low cost the Skopar is worth a try - very low risk.

[costa43]

Welcome. You seem to be doing a really good job in testing and comparing already. It does take time to learn a lens in my experience. There are number of variables that can be measured objectively but in the end, it comes down to what you prefer. Many of us own multiple lenses of the same focal length as they each offer something different. The Color Skopar is a no nonsense performer that can be slipped into a winter jacket easily for instance. The Nokton f1.2 has a dreamy look wide open and an advantage in lower light, the Summicron is a classic design that has stood the test of time. Leica have stuck with the same optical design for over 45 years now. It is also a Leica lens. There is a charm in shooting with a lens that has some history, subjective but the M camera for me is mainly about the feeling so it’s another primary factor in my own decision making.

The handling and actual experience of using the lens is also very important to me. How do they feel in use, do you prefer a shorter throw where you can quickly go from near focus to infinity or a longer one that provides more accuracy in focusing, do you prefer the experience of using a focus tab. Another important factor to consider are the type of photos you take. Are you shooting into the sun a lot, do you take a lot of portraits, lowlight, close up shots etc.

If you really need to whittle the collection down to a single lens, you will compromise on something as there is no perfect option. Just go with the one that feels right. The gut usually leads you down the right path. You may end up buying them back again later on down the line though!

FWIW, If I was picking out of these 3 options then I would choose the Summicron, it’s what you cannot measure that wins out of these 3 for me. A new Leica camera with a classic Leica lens is a good starting point imo. Saying that, having a small slip in the jacket option is appealing also…..oh dear, here we go again!

Edited Wednesday at 12:49 AM by costa43

[DenverSteve]

The Summicron has always been the benchmark for me.  I owned versions 2-6 at the same time to test and evaluate and kept the v5.  If I were testing the lenses you have it would take about 30 minutes.  Find a still life that you like - landscape, people that aren't going anywhere, buildings.... all with sky and foreground.  Look at the images created and pick what you like the best.  I would add that you can't/won't go wrong with the Summicron where the others may exhibit a bit more flare than the v5 Summi.  If the Summicron is in your budget I would take it.  However, don't discount a viii or vIV as you might save some decent change and get the same quality lens with (maybe) slight color difference, but maybe not.  Congrats on the 240.  

What I would do prior to buying a M lens is to take a few minutes and look at the EXIF from your prior photos to see what the most used focal length is.  You may find that 35 might work better if that's what you use more often.  Here's an article by Matt Osborne.  He's very good with these comparisons.  Also, Ken Rockwell has put out some comparison charts that are helpful. 

https://mrleica.com/leica-m-50mm-lenses-compared/

Edited Wednesday at 01:21 AM by DenverSteve

[SimonV]

16 hours ago, costa43 said:

Welcome. You seem to be doing a really good job in testing and comparing already. It does take time to learn a lens in my experience. There are number of variables that can be measured objectively but in the end, it comes down to what you prefer. Many of us own multiple lenses of the same focal length as they each offer something different. The Color Skopar is a no nonsense performer that can be slipped into a winter jacket easily for instance. The Nokton f1.2 has a dreamy look wide open and an advantage in lower light, the Summicron is a classic design that has stood the test of time. Leica have stuck with the same optical design for over 45 years now. It is also a Leica lens. There is a charm in shooting with a lens that has some history, subjective but the M camera for me is mainly about the feeling so it’s another primary factor in my own decision making.

The handling and actual experience of using the lens is also very important to me. How do they feel in use, do you prefer a shorter throw where you can quickly go from near focus to infinity or a longer one that provides more accuracy in focusing, do you prefer the experience of using a focus tab. Another important factor to consider are the type of photos you take. Are you shooting into the sun a lot, do you take a lot of portraits, lowlight, close up shots etc.

If you really need to whittle the collection down to a single lens, you will compromise on something as there is no perfect option. Just go with the one that feels right. The gut usually leads you down the right path. You may end up buying them back again later on down the line though!

FWIW, If I was picking out of these 3 options then I would choose the Summicron, it’s what you cannot measure that wins out of these 3 for me. A new Leica camera with a classic Leica lens is a good starting point imo. Saying that, having a small slip in the jacket option is appealing also…..oh dear, here we go again!

Thank you! I've been doing a lot more testing, going out for photo walks, then superimposing and aligning the images, comparing bokeh, sharpness and so on. I've also always favored the blind test method of coming back to the shots later without remembering which is which, to see which ones you really like, so it can be a time consuming process. Fun in its own right, though.

At the moment I'm actually leaning towards both the Voigtländers instead of the Summicron (for almost an identical price) because they represent the two ends of the spectrum for me, low light / smoother bokeh + close up focusing and sharpness with a minimal weight. The Summicron as well seems to be exhibiting back focusing, although I'm not sure if it's possible that only one lens behaves differently in this way on rangefinders? In any case, I consistently seem to be getting the focus behind the subject when using it, and getting a sharp superimposed image in the rangefinder as well as a properly focused image seems more difficult than with the Voigtländers. It's a shame in a sense since I think the lens fits the camera body the best (and it's a Leica), but considering I can keep the two Voigtländers for the same price, it's not a bad solution. And nothing stops me from getting a different Leica lens in the future, and I'm almost certain I will at some point.

[SimonV]

16 hours ago, DenverSteve said:

The Summicron has always been the benchmark for me.  I owned versions 2-6 at the same time to test and evaluate and kept the v5.  If I were testing the lenses you have it would take about 30 minutes.  Find a still life that you like - landscape, people that aren't going anywhere, buildings.... all with sky and foreground.  Look at the images created and pick what you like the best.  I would add that you can't/won't go wrong with the Summicron where the others may exhibit a bit more flare than the v5 Summi.  If the Summicron is in your budget I would take it.  However, don't discount a viii or vIV as you might save some decent change and get the same quality lens with (maybe) slight color difference, but maybe not.  Congrats on the 240.  

What I would do prior to buying a M lens is to take a few minutes and look at the EXIF from your prior photos to see what the most used focal length is.  You may find that 35 might work better if that's what you use more often.  Here's an article by Matt Osborne.  He's very good with these comparisons.  Also, Ken Rockwell has put out some comparison charts that are helpful. 

https://mrleica.com/leica-m-50mm-lenses-compared/

Thanks! I've been binging Mr. Leica's videos for a long time, even before getting the M240, he indeed has some great comparisons. I've got the Q3 actually for those wider shots, and am planning to use the M240 for more fun shooting as well as those longer shots, 50 for now but maybe something like a 75 or 90 in future. 

As I said one reply above I didn't quite yet come to terms with the Summicron, partly because it seems to be harder to focus, or have some back focus issue, but I'm not yet familiar with how back focusing behaves on rangefinder cameras so won't assume to much about that. From my latest testing I found the Nokton 50mm 1.2 to perform at equal or sharper levels than the Summicron at F2, it does produce cooler colors but it would seem it's not something that requires more than a little color / white balance adjustment in post. Otherwise they are hard to distinguish for me at similar apertures, and the added flexibility of F1.2 and F1.4 is hard to pass up. My only gripe with the Nokton is the fatter lens circumference, the silver Summicron sits so much better on the silver M240. But it also has quite a bit of play in the aperture ring, which is a bit disappointing considering the price and what I would expect from Leica's build quality.

I still have a few days to test the lenses though so will have to put them through a few more scenarios to make the ultimate choice. Thanks for the advice!

[andybiggs]

The latest Voiglander 1.5 Nokton is great. Sharp and small size.

just to confuse things!

[TomB_tx]

Like many lenses the 50 Summicron does have some shift in focus rearward as they are stopped down. The 1969 Summicron I have has spot-on focus just before 2.8, so at 2,0 it slightly front-focuses, and 4.0 slightly back. I always found it undetectable until I started checking a focus chart on Digital while the camera was tripod mounted. On film & hand-held it always seemed fine on 3-D objects instead of a test chart. In my tests the little Color Skopar 50 2.2 has less shift than the Summicron.

Per andybiggs post above I also have the latest 50 1.5 Nokton II and agree the performance and small size are great, but again it does have noticeable shift in focus as it is stopped down. Generally faster lenses have more focus shift. I use it on a film M now where it isn't noticed. That Nokton and the new tiny 35 f1.5 make a great pair.

[lct]

43 minutes ago, SimonV said:

[...] I didn't quite yet come to terms with the Summicron, partly because it seems to be harder to focus, or have some back focus issue, but I'm not yet familiar with how back focusing behaves on rangefinder cameras so won't assume to much about that [...]

The Summicron 50/2 v5 has a bit of focus shift at f/4-f/5.6. Same for the v4 of it. Nothing to worry about TBH but if you prefer less to no focus shift at all, both Summicron 50/2 v1 and v2 are the way to go as far as f/2 lenses are concerned. Those are legacy lenses though so you might like them or not. A more modern candidate would be the Zeiss Planar 50/2 but it has a bit of focus shift too, nothing to worry about either but it has less flare than the Summicron. Not the best lens for gentle portaits though. Compromise, compromise...

[jdlaing]

Easiest way is to take pictures with it. It’s an old lens. It’s been tested to death at least twice.