setuporg Posted June 21 Share #41 Posted June 21 Advertisement (gone after registration) 10 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said: So if it looks like a M, walks like a M and quacks like a M but isn't called a M and doesn't have a 'M' visible on it anywhere, would that be OK? If it poops digital overlays it won’t poop like an M. So won’t be one! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 21 Posted June 21 Hi setuporg, Take a look here Really would love hybrid viewfinder on D variant. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
JNK100 Posted June 21 Share #42 Posted June 21 19 minutes ago, Dazzajl said: That’s a very fair point and Oskar definitely hit it out of the park on that one. It was over 110 years ago now though and however fabulous that invention was, I don’t think one breakthrough makes for ‘a history of innovation. That's a very fair point too..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazzajl Posted June 21 Share #43 Posted June 21 22 minutes ago, setuporg said: If it poops digital overlays it won’t poop like an M. So won’t be one! To play devils advocate here…. An M that shoots digital instead of film is a far bigger bridge to cross than one with an EVF added isn’t it? I’m actually quite surprised that the M8 was called such and not the MD, to differentiate the two lines. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
setuporg Posted June 21 Share #44 Posted June 21 27 minutes ago, Dazzajl said: To play devils advocate here…. An M that shoots digital instead of film is a far bigger bridge to cross than one with an EVF added isn’t it? I’m actually quite surprised that the M8 was called such and not the MD, to differentiate the two lines. Digital is just another kind of film. The fun way to approach a Leica is to consider different sensors different films. So now we can keep all of them and compare the effects of film — CCD on M9, CMOS on M240, M10, M11. The B&W films of M9M, M246, M10M, M11M. Hasselblad did it best with 907x, where you can literally replace a sensor with film. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazzajl Posted June 21 Share #45 Posted June 21 5 minutes ago, setuporg said: The fun way to approach a Leica is to consider different sensors different films. 100% this and I think for all cameras too. I definitely have my favourite sensors from several manufacturers and unsurprisingly for me, they’re all ones that are pretty long in the tooth now. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 22 Share #46 Posted June 22 13 hours ago, Dazzajl said: That’s a very fair point and Oskar definitely hit it out of the park on that one. It was over 110 years ago now though and however fabulous that invention was, I don’t think one breakthrough makes for ‘a history of innovation. The M3 was quite a revolutionary camera. With its view/rangefinder. Even Zeiss conceded technological defeat. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazzajl Posted June 22 Share #47 Posted June 22 Advertisement (gone after registration) 7 hours ago, jaapv said: The M3 was quite a revolutionary camera. With its view/rangefinder. Even Zeiss conceded technological defeat. I see that as coming from Contax, several years earlier. This could start sounding quite anti Leica and it's really not. I love my Leicas and I love what I see that they stand for. Not innovation but taking what is accepted as the standard in camera design and improving it. Making something that is better built, more tactile, more responsive and more inspirational. They do have some very tough choices ahead with the M line because more and more people are wanting this 'pinnacle' camera to have some of the modern tech on offer everywhere else. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted June 22 Share #48 Posted June 22 No disrespect but this sounds like trying to teach survival techniques to a centenarian or swimming art to an old barracuda. Besides Pixii, Leica competitors went bankrupt or quit making RFs for a long time. One don't teach a monkey how to grimace 😉 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
evikne Posted June 22 Share #49 Posted June 22 I still think two separate lines will be the best solution. I have little faith that a hybrid solution will ever be as good as, or better than, a pure RF camera. 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwidad Posted June 23 Share #50 Posted June 23 16 hours ago, Dazzajl said: They do have some very tough choices ahead with the M line because more and more people are wanting this 'pinnacle' camera to have some of the modern tech on offer everywhere else. “More and more” … Rollei went down that path and look at their history! Leica has a niche market which they clearly have no trouble selling all the cameras they can make to so why risk with what “more and more” people want from an already overcrowded technology market! I have an SL2 for times I feel the urge to go with technology but It’s gets very little use. The latest on a hybrid M seems to be its been nixed by Leica. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazzajl Posted June 23 Share #51 Posted June 23 37 minutes ago, kiwidad said: Leica has a niche market which they clearly have no trouble selling all the cameras they can make to so why risk with what “more and more” people want from an already overcrowded technology market! I think because their market is a shrinking demographic and they will have to look to younger buyers fairly soon. Will they be attracted to the same ‘pure’ spec as people love now? I’d be thrilled if they are but I don’t think they will. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 23 Share #52 Posted June 23 17 hours ago, Dazzajl said: I see that as coming from Contax, several years earlier. This could start sounding quite anti Leica and it's really not. I love my Leicas and I love what I see that they stand for. Not innovation but taking what is accepted as the standard in camera design and improving it. Making something that is better built, more tactile, more responsive and more inspirational. They do have some very tough choices ahead with the M line because more and more people are wanting this 'pinnacle' camera to have some of the modern tech on offer everywhere else. This short article might interest you. 1 hour ago, Dazzajl said: I think because their market is a shrinking demographic and they will have to look to younger buyers fairly soon. Will they be attracted to the same ‘pure’ spec as people love now? I’d be thrilled if they are but I don’t think they will. Interesting Where did you find information on this? It contradicts the shift to younger buyers that we see on this forum. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted June 23 Share #53 Posted June 23 The implied 'demographic' above is old photographers. There's no shortage of old people in this world. It's the global problem for health services, social care providers and pension managers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 23 Share #54 Posted June 23 True, but there is clearly a revival of interest in “real” photography 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakontil Posted June 23 Share #55 Posted June 23 24 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said: The implied 'demographic' above is old photographers. There's no shortage of old people in this world. It's the global problem for health services, social care providers and pension managers. My daughter, 17, picked an M over Q and my 907 solely because she says it’s easier and simpler to use with RF and not cluttered with unnecessary non photographic tools, but then her eyes are still as fresh as ours a couple of decades or more ago.. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazzajl Posted June 23 Share #56 Posted June 23 I really hope you’re all right and I will happily take the ‘we told you so’ posts if they come. I love my M cameras for their lack of tech and simplicity. I appreciate the screen to operate the camera but I’m not a big fan of live view 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwidad Posted June 23 Share #57 Posted June 23 35 minutes ago, jaapv said: True, but there is clearly a revival of interest in “real” photography I think a good indicator of this is how many "young" folk are shooting film. Simple and uncluttered cameras made in the 70's are much more popular than those More technologically advanced made in the 80s and 90s! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrozenInTime Posted June 23 Share #58 Posted June 23 Let me throw in a radical idea, somewhat in the spirit of the Barnack cameras: Top left of camera - optical rangefinder Bottom left of camera - EVF 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwidad Posted June 23 Share #59 Posted June 23 3 minutes ago, FrozenInTime said: Let me throw in a radical idea, somewhat in the spirit of the Barnack cameras: Top left of camera - optical rangefinder Bottom left of camera - EVF how about a new line of camera with a strangely placed EVF on the bottom left back of camera! but wait there is a really big EVF already. Put an eyepiece on it and bam you got it! (And yes a big aftermarket eyepiece/shade does exist!) 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrozenInTime Posted June 23 Share #60 Posted June 23 Just now, kiwidad said: how about a new line of camera with a strangely placed EVF on the bottom left back of camera! but wait there is a really big EVF already. Put an eyepiece on it and bam you got it! (And yes a big aftermarket eyepiece/shade does exist!) A flip up WLF hood/magnifier would also work on the top plate better than the lump that is the visoflex 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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