da_eltsch Posted June 1 Share #121 Posted June 1 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) Am 31.5.2025 um 16:30 schrieb Jon Warwick: I used to have a DP2 Merrill, and thought the images were striking due to the distinct underlying sensor technology, which is obviously different to the generic bayer filter cameras. Not a versatile technology, and not easy with Sigma’s processor, but I thought the Merrill sensor produced better textures, less moire, better acutance, better tonal separation, etc. @bags27 Zitat Am I the only one who thinks the Leica 007, which I lamentably don't own, and the Sigma DP-2 Merrill, which I happily do, still can't be beat (even by my Blad 907x 50c)? (except maybe by my Blad SWC 903, which is just a lot more fun?) Hey guys: how dare you!!!! ... 😂... now you have made me bid for a minty DP-2 Merrill ... Have sold my own a couple years ago. I have got GRAS ... Gear re-aquisition syndrome But to make this not too much 'off-topic': I am looking forward to a new - hopefully continuing - Leica Medium Format Body. I have just re-established my Leica S-System because I was missing that whole shooting experience with optical viewfinder, beautiful body and those sharp but creamy lenses, long battery life etc. For sure the new one is going to be something: EVF, IBIS, OIS, "competitive" AF etc. (if/when it comes to the market). I just need that "backwards compatibility to the lenses" 😉 Best, Helge Edited June 1 by da_eltsch 5 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 1 Posted June 1 Hi da_eltsch, Take a look here S4 speculations. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Stef63 Posted June 1 Share #122 Posted June 1 (edited) We all love Leica here and genuinely want to see it succeed in the photography market. That’s why we’re part of this forum and keep coming back. But let’s also stay realistic. While Leica has an exceptional reputation and loyal following, it remains a small player in the industry. Here on the forum, we often see bold claims—like Leica ranking among the most profitable brands or its technology competing on platforms alongside giants like Apple. But when you look at the actual numbers, the scale tells a very different story (2024 figures). • Nikon Imaging: €1.99 billion revenue, €129 million operating profit (~6.5%) • Fujifilm Imaging: €2.99 billion revenue, €276.7 million operating profit (~9.3%) • Canon Imaging: €5.74 billion revenue, €932 million operating profit (~16.2%) • Sony Imaging: €8.90 billion revenue, €1.77 billion operating profit (~19.8%) • Leica: €394 million revenue, €30 million profit (~7.6%) So Leica's profitability % is average and total revenue in euro's nowhere near the big players. Leica’s revenue from mobile imaging was €13 million in the most recent fiscal year, which is approximately 0.0065% of Apple’s iPhone revenue. It’s worth noting that someone appears to be leveraging Leica’s reputation—without investing heavily in return. Launching a new line like the S4 —aimed at the already niche medium format market—is not a decision you sketch out lightly on the back of a napkin. It’s a strategic move that has to be carefully weighed against the company’s broader financial realities. And that’s without even mentioning the formidable task of meeting the expectations we, as brand loyalists, naturally place on Leica. The S line set a very high bar in the past. We’ve been spoiled with a tool that’s not only powerful and refined, but truly unique in the market. Creating a worthy successor won’t just be difficult—it will be - if they go for it - one of Leica’s great product challenges. Edited June 1 by Stef63 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pieter12 Posted June 1 Share #123 Posted June 1 3 hours ago, da_eltsch said: For sure the new one is going to be something: EVF, IBIS, OIS, "competitive" AF etc. (if/when it comes to the market). I just need that "backwards compatibility to the lenses" I think the most probable outcome is the S4, if it does come to fruition, will be a bloated SL3 with a larger sensor and an astronomical price tag. Is that really necessary? 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted June 1 Share #124 Posted June 1 1 hour ago, Pieter12 said: I think the most probable outcome is the S4, if it does come to fruition, will be a bloated SL3 with a larger sensor and an astronomical price tag. Is that really necessary? I suspect that they would tweak your marketing. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Richardson Posted June 1 Share #125 Posted June 1 3 hours ago, Pieter12 said: I think the most probable outcome is the S4, if it does come to fruition, will be a bloated SL3 with a larger sensor and an astronomical price tag. Is that really necessary? Honestly, other than the price tag, I would certainly rather a larger SL camera with a larger sensor. Hopefully with more design cues from the S system. Bloated suggests that it is disproportionate and inelegant, and I don’t think that is really something to expect from Leica. I doubt Leica will make just a larger SL, if only because they will want more differentiation as a marketing tool. If you don’t want a medium format Leica, then why are you here? If you are expecting another SLR, that ship sailed years ago. As for being necessary, it is a bit reductive. Is an M11D necessary? A 50mm 1.2 Noctilux in 2025? Clearly enough people want them to make them worth making. That seemed to be the case with the S cameras as well. Otherwise the last one would have been the S2. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pieter12 Posted June 2 Share #126 Posted June 2 54 minutes ago, Stuart Richardson said: Honestly, other than the price tag, I would certainly rather a larger SL camera with a larger sensor. Hopefully with more design cues from the S system. Bloated suggests that it is disproportionate and inelegant, and I don’t think that is really something to expect from Leica. I doubt Leica will make just a larger SL, if only because they will want more differentiation as a marketing tool. If you don’t want a medium format Leica, then why are you here? If you are expecting another SLR, that ship sailed years ago. As for being necessary, it is a bit reductive. Is an M11D necessary? A 50mm 1.2 Noctilux in 2025? Clearly enough people want them to make them worth making. That seemed to be the case with the S cameras as well. Otherwise the last one would have been the S2. The S2 was saddled with a corrosion-prone sensor and seemingly the end of CCD sensor development. The 007 was a logical next step using CMOS technology, the S3 a big step up in resolution. Real reasons to continue the line. All the speculation I have read about an S4 points to everything that already exists in the SL3 but with a larger sensor. None of which particularly interests me. I was curious if anything really innovative would be in the offing. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frame-it Posted June 2 Share #127 Posted June 2 Advertisement (gone after registration) 5 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said: Honestly, other than the price tag, I would certainly rather a larger SL camera with a larger sensor. Hopefully with more design cues from the S system. Bloated suggests that it is disproportionate and inelegant, and I don’t think that is really something to expect from Leica. I doubt Leica will make just a larger SL, if only because they will want more differentiation as a marketing tool. If you don’t want a medium format Leica, then why are you here? If you are expecting another SLR, that ship sailed years ago. As for being necessary, it is a bit reductive. Is an M11D necessary? A 50mm 1.2 Noctilux in 2025? Clearly enough people want them to make them worth making. That seemed to be the case with the S cameras as well. Otherwise the last one would have been the S2. a larger SL camera would basically look a bit like the X2d leaked online> HB722.pdf 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ynp Posted June 2 Share #128 Posted June 2 1 hour ago, frame-it said: a larger SL camera would basically look a bit like the X2d leaked online> HB722.pdf 896.46 kB · 2 downloads Wow, the joystick at last. 🙏 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frame-it Posted June 2 Share #129 Posted June 2 1 hour ago, ynp said: Wow, the joystick at last. 🙏 and LiDAR based Autofocus apparently invented in Japan https://patents.google.com/patent/JP2022148973A/en?assignee=Victor+Hasselblad&oq=Victor+Hasselblad&sort=new 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Richardson Posted June 2 Share #130 Posted June 2 I am sorry, I don't know that system. To me it looks like the camera they already have. How is that relevant here? Doesn't particularly look like an SL to me... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardC Posted June 2 Share #131 Posted June 2 4 hours ago, frame-it said: and LiDAR based Autofocus apparently invented in Japan Lumix has a LiDAR add-on for their cameras, in cooperation with DJI (an L-Mount Alliance partner), so it could be offered in the S4. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frame-it Posted June 7 Share #132 Posted June 7 On 6/2/2025 at 9:06 PM, BernardC said: Lumix has a LiDAR add-on for their cameras, in cooperation with DJI (an L-Mount Alliance partner), so it could be offered in the S4. nice, and hopefully the Af speed wont destroy the silly cheap gears in the lens 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slender Posted June 8 Share #133 Posted June 8 (edited) On 6/1/2025 at 7:31 PM, Stef63 said: • Nikon Imaging: €1.99 billion revenue, €129 million operating profit (~6.5%) • Fujifilm Imaging: €2.99 billion revenue, €276.7 million operating profit (~9.3%) • Canon Imaging: €5.74 billion revenue, €932 million operating profit (~16.2%) • Sony Imaging: €8.90 billion revenue, €1.77 billion operating profit (~19.8%) • Leica: €394 million revenue, €30 million profit (~7.6%) Well well hang on a second.... "imaging" usually includes all branches of business like scanners, printers, sport optics, industrial solutions for labs and book printers, monitors and TV sets.... and in the case of Sony, Canon and Fujifilm all the broadcasting market (Tv cameras, lenses for TV which can cost up to 100K per unit....etc....) these are huge markets, way bigger than what 35mm cameras can yield. Panasonic also is a big player here for cinema and television... they essentially supplied the whole of BBC and other national TV broadcasters worldwide for decades. Thats also what "imaging" means for these companies. Edited June 8 by Slender 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardC Posted June 8 Share #134 Posted June 8 2 hours ago, Slender said: Well well hang on a second.... "imaging" usually includes all branches of business like scanners, printers, sport optics, industrial solutions for labs and book printers, monitors and TV sets.... and in the case of Sony, Canon and Fujifilm all the broadcasting market (Tv cameras, lenses for TV which can cost up to 100K per unit....etc....) these are huge markets, way bigger than what 35mm cameras can yield. These large companies will drop their camera business when things aren't going well, as have Olympus, Kyocera (Yashica), Konica, Minolta, Zeiss. Sony's consumer camera business is a few bad quarters away from joining other iconic Sony products that have disappeared (Walkman/Minidisc, HiFi, most televisions, etc.). 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
setuporg Posted June 28 Share #135 Posted June 28 On 6/1/2025 at 2:45 PM, Jeff S said: I suspect that they would tweak your marketing. "Just slightly larger than SL3, Leica S4 Monochrom sports the industry-leading Medium Format B&W sensor." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frame-it Posted June 28 Share #136 Posted June 28 4 hours ago, setuporg said: industry-leading Medium Format B&W sensor. i thought that was Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted June 28 Share #137 Posted June 28 5 hours ago, setuporg said: "Just slightly larger than SL3, Leica S4 Monochrom sports the industry-leading Medium Format B&W sensor." Koudelka was ahead of his time… https://petapixel.com/2015/06/04/leica-crafted-a-one-of-a-kind-panoramic-s2-for-josef-koudelka/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gael.e Posted July 6 Share #138 Posted July 6 While I have not used a Pentax camera, some of their dslr's have a very intriguing utility: composition adjustment. It mimics a shift lens by moving only the sensor. I am skeptical that Leica would implement something like this, but it would be a pretty cool feature if all s4 lenses and the ibis were optimized for 3 or 4mm of shift. Don't quote me on this; I am not aware of any tilt shift lens that is weather sealed. This would be a neat way of working around this for inclement weather. One will notice the extreme vignetting from the Pentax system when this is used with a wide angle lens. https://www.pentaxforums.com/articles/tutorial-videos/sensor-shift-in-action-increasing-field-of-view.html 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanefking Posted August 17 Share #139 Posted August 17 So is the S4 dead or what? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einst_Stein Posted August 18 Share #140 Posted August 18 (edited) I can only think the S4 to be a larger sensor SL3. What else technology can be applied to S4 that has not been on SL3 or FF digital camera? Assume it is just a larger sensor SL3, say, 45mm x 30mm or 44mm x 33mm. What more can it give than an SL3 or the equivazlent? about 1.5X more MP or half stop more of light sensitivity (i.e. ISO or dynamic range or both)! But according to the trend of all FF digital cameras, 24mp is still the sweet spot, so 1.5X more MP would not sell well. So the real benefit is half stop of dynamic range. Who would appreciate that half stop dunamic range (or 1.5X more MP) so much that willing to buy another different system than the FF SLx? I doubt Leica can get the ROI that makes sense at all. As a user, I can get that benefit by just wait half a generation of the upgrade. On the other hand, I can argue that Fujifilm's GFX makes its way very well. If Leica can offer that price, it may make sense. But that would mean Leica has to sacrfies the SL line to offer sensible pricing strategy. Edited August 18 by Einst_Stein Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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