S4 speculations

[tangosix]

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I admit that I am looking forward to this speculated medium format release.  The X2D workflow is too troublesome for me between phocus vs Lightroom to commit to the x2d.  Phase one appears to be stagnant, although Frame Averaging is an incredibly desired feature I want.  

From my perspective, clients and customers are demanding a differentiation in the look of their images.  Corporate work seems to want the same accurate depictions, but food and lifestyle requests I receive want something (a look) more unique.  I agreed to a few weddings this season, and was fascinated that 7 of 10 clients in their 20s asked for medium format film shots.  Hipster, a fad or not, they were sincere and gushed over film images.  It was fun enough, but a reminder of the pain of film days gone by.  

I have high hopes that the S4 will bring the kind of image improvements that the S3 brought at the time of its launch.  I was so enamored by the S3 color science IQ and lens renderings.  We will be so lucky if the S4 is real.  

[GMB]

1 hour ago, tangosix said:

We will be so lucky if the S4 is real.  

Yes!

[tom0511]

If

[ImmerDraussen]

I sold some old „R“-equipment in Wetzlar to finance the 21mm Summicron this week. I got the strong recommendation to keep my „S“-lenses (they were not in the basket). The new S will allow:

• use the old lenses via adaptor
• Autofocus function like „S“-lenses adapted to a SL
• Central Shutter will be supported with CS lenses

So a new new S seems to come.

[Tirpitz666]

Well, that's great news! Even considering that the Kipon AF adapter for GFX doesn't seem to be a reliable AF solution for all that marvellous S glass (at least for now).

Not that I will be able to afford a S4 for a looong time when it will be released, guess I'll stick with my S-E basically forever.. 😀

[jplomley]

7 hours ago, ImmerDraussen said:

I sold some old „R“-equipment in Wetzlar to finance the 21mm Summicron this week. I got the strong recommendation to keep my „S“-lenses (they were not in the basket). The new S will allow:

• use the old lenses via adaptor
• Autofocus function like „S“-lenses adapted to a SL
• Central Shutter will be supported with CS lenses

So a new new S seems to come.

Wonder if SL APO lenses can be used on the S4. Is the image circle large enough?

[SrMi]

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1 hour ago, jplomley said:

Wonder if SL APO lenses can be used on the S4. Is the image circle large enough?

I assume the L lenses will be used in 35mm crop mode.

[helged]

On 5/8/2025 at 7:38 PM, SrMi said:

I assume the L lenses will be used in 35mm crop mode.

Yes, this is what I have been told, by a Leica representative some years back.

It would be interesting if one had the option to use a more square-ish format on S4 with full format lenses (including L and M-mount lenses), from 2:3 to 1:1 aspect ratio (or up to 35x35mm on sensor).

The more restrictive filmatic XPan aspect ratio 65:24 is popular by some, and available in eg Panasonic S1Rii. In this case raw image is masked, but the full 24x35mm format is available in postprocessing.

Time will tell... 

[helged]

S4 status (=patience):

«Andreas has told the press before that a medium format camera is being worked on and that it is indeed real. But when asked about it during our interview, Andreas stated that the camera is real and is still being worked on. However, he hesitates to talk about it more because he flat-out states that it isn’t easy to make.» 

https://www.thephoblographer.com/2025/05/13/leica-comments-on-the-future-of-human-photography-and-a-curious-camera

[sebben]

I wonder why that is?

It seems like it would be easier now than ever before. Hasselblad and Fuji have been proving that for years now…

It’s not like Leica is even challenging using bigger sensor sizes like PhaseOne. 
 

I find this a strange comment from the owner of the company. 

[helged]

3 hours ago, sebben said:

I wonder why that is?

It seems like it would be easier now than ever before. Hasselblad and Fuji have been proving that for years now…

It’s not like Leica is even challenging using bigger sensor sizes like PhaseOne. 
 

I find this a strange comment from the owner of the company. 

It may depend on whether/how Leica wants to differentiate S4 and a new set of lenses from GFX or X2D (beyond the price tag...), as well as SLx, when the system is out in - say - 2026, with large uncertainties re tariffs, availability of components, etc. Not to mention if they aim for global shutter and similar 'upgrades'. 

[Tirpitz666]

Personally I think that if Leica would like to really differentiate itself in the MF field, considering that for sure is likely going to charge 15K+ quid for the body only (I would be very surprised otherwise), they should aim to put into that rumored S4 a significantly bigger sensor  that the one already included in the Fuji and Hasselblad offerings, maybe not as big as the "FF" ones included in the top Phase One offerings, but at least something around 48x36 like the one in the Mamyia ZD should be feasible, since it has already been done almost twenty years ago.. (btw, still a pretty capable camera, in the right shooting conditions and base ISO)

Edited May 29 by Tirpitz666

[BernardC]

8 hours ago, sebben said:

I wonder why that is?

It seems like it would be easier now than ever before. Hasselblad and Fuji have been proving that for years now…

If it was easy it wouldn't be worth doing.

Leica knows that matching Fuji's offer is a recipe for disaster. Every "high resolution" photographer already owns a Fuji or Hasselblad. Leica needs to expand the market, they can't just nip at the heels of established competitors.

Thankfully for Leica, existing MF mirrorless systems have a lot of weaknesses. They are not fast to use, they are not rugged, they can barely shoot video, and their lens quality varies a lot.

In other words, what Leica needs to build is a camera that is better at everything than the SL3, and that has a bigger sensor. It needs to convince every 35mm shooter as well as professionals and traditional landscape photogs. If it was easy, Fuji and Hasselblad would have already done it.

[pgh]

6 hours ago, BernardC said:

If it was easy it wouldn't be worth doing.

Leica knows that matching Fuji's offer is a recipe for disaster. Every "high resolution" photographer already owns a Fuji or Hasselblad. Leica needs to expand the market, they can't just nip at the heels of established competitors.

Thankfully for Leica, existing MF mirrorless systems have a lot of weaknesses. They are not fast to use, they are not rugged, they can barely shoot video, and their lens quality varies a lot.

In other words, what Leica needs to build is a camera that is better at everything than the SL3, and that has a bigger sensor. It needs to convince every 35mm shooter as well as professionals and traditional landscape photogs. If it was easy, Fuji and Hasselblad would have already done it.

This is a bit of a philosophical turn in the discussion, but the way technology is evolving, specifically with advancements in generative AI imaging, most photography becomes less and less relevant and high end photographic tools less marketable. Commercial budgets are cratering because they can, and commercial photographers generally are less tasked with the ultimate resolution and instead with some bullshit about “authenticity” - what I’m saying is that this further reduces the niche of people that an S4 would go for. Going out into the world to create an image as opposed to doing so behind a screen is becoming less common and when it happens more often than not we’re using phones spitting out images that can hardly even be called photographs at this point. 

I really don’t think better AF of better lenses (it’s hard to find a bad lens in the current hassy or Fuji lineup, it’s just a matter of less excellent - an academic point to anyone buying the or viewing the images these cameras produce).

It’s easy to imagine a future in which straightforward documentary photography is the only sort of relevant photography left and everything else is better generated by computers than by cameras. Personally, I’d bet on it sooner than later. It doesn’t mean some people won’t still use cameras, but unless the picture makes a point to claim to depict something in real life viewers aren’t going to care how the image was made - high resolution camera or high resolution generative AI engine. And these S tools are not generally made with documentary scenarios in mind…however the M always has been, and the SL is no slouch in this use case. Most recent M’s have gone too close to the S route and are generally a bit less good for documentary than the prior generation - or depending on one’s uses, possibly marginally better at best.

I don’t see and can’t envision an S better suited for this work than what they have already. Perhaps it’s a failure of my imagination but I don’t think it’s worth the investment whatever it is. 

Edited May 29 by pgh

[Stef63]

@pgh soo true!

To me a mirrorless S4, with a complete new range of lenses, will be a very hard and risky gamble for Leica.  When they introduced the S2 long ago it was a bold move, but in a completely different time for digital photography. 

[ynp]

2 hours ago, pgh said:

And these S tools are not generally made with documentary scenarios in mind…however the M always has been, and the SL is no slouch in this use case. Most recent M’s have gone too close to the S route and are generally a bit less good for documentary than the prior generation - or depending on one’s uses, possibly marginally better at best.

I don’t see and can’t envision an S better suited for this work than what they have already. Perhaps it’s a failure of my imagination but I don’t think it’s worth the investment whatever it is. 

The more I think about the possibility of the S4 the more I think that I would rather invest in grip and lighting for the studio. And in some bits for my S3.

I concur , I cannot imagine any documentary scenario for a medium format camera for $25k when a typical output for the images is 4-6k and social media. And any modern full frame camera will be much better for that. 

[sebben]

11 hours ago, BernardC said:

If it was easy it wouldn't be worth doing.

Leica knows that matching Fuji's offer is a recipe for disaster. Every "high resolution" photographer already owns a Fuji or Hasselblad. Leica needs to expand the market, they can't just nip at the heels of established competitors.

Thankfully for Leica, existing MF mirrorless systems have a lot of weaknesses. They are not fast to use, they are not rugged, they can barely shoot video, and their lens quality varies a lot.

In other words, what Leica needs to build is a camera that is better at everything than the SL3, and that has a bigger sensor. It needs to convince every 35mm shooter as well as professionals and traditional landscape photogs. If it was easy, Fuji and Hasselblad would have already done it.

A lot of people would be happy with a Leica Medium format mirrorless that can take all existing lenses + plus a few faster autofocusing medium format mirrorless lens. So essentially the Leica version of the hasselblad/fuji cameras which is why I say I don't get what the problem is as this has been shown to be done at an accessible price point for years already!

Leica is all about the experience, haptics and philosophical approach to the camera and lenses. They don't lead with technology ever. Just look at how behind the SL3 is compared the latest Lumix cameras in everything but user experience.

 

 

 

 

[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, sebben said:

Leica is all about the experience, haptics and philosophical approach to the camera and lenses. They don't lead with technology ever. Just look at how behind the SL3 is compared the latest Lumix cameras in everything but user experience.

 

 

 

 

I give them more credit, starting with class leading viewing systems, such as the EVF in the original SL, the gorgeous OVF with the S launch (and remember the S arrived before the Fuji and Hassy and Pentax MF digital competition), and of course the unique M experience.  Likewise, they even quieted doubters in this community when they successfully launched the monochome-only and screen-less M versions. And don’t forget that they invented the first AF system, which admittedly wasn’t capitalized on product-wise.  

Edited May 30 by Jeff S

[shanefking]

7 hours ago, pgh said:

It’s easy to imagine a future in which straightforward documentary photography is the only sort of relevant photography left and everything else is better generated by computers than by cameras.

Better for whom? 

“AI” images scream “zero budget”.  

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[pgh]

30 minutes ago, shanefking said:

Better for whom? 

“AI” images scream “zero budget”.  

Yea. That’s my point. Of course it’s not better for photographers but on the commercial side of things no agency is hiring photographers out of sympathy to keep the profession alive. If it can be done by AI, it will be, and more and more it already is. It is one of the many jobs that is getting flattened by this stuff and nothing is going to stop it. Brands love getting what they think is more with less of their advertising budgets. When I say better I mean less work and cheaper and accomplishes the goals of the user of the work (often different goals than the photographer). This was almost three years ago now that an art director at a major brand (I’m friends with, I do not work with) admitted to me they will be saving a lot of money by foregoing location shoots and generating background for product imagery, and it was only the beginning. Some photographer lost their bread and butter account that year that probably paid their mortgage, through no fault of their own - only because they used outdated tools for the job.

And after some time AI will make the megapixel race look silly - you’ll be able to make images that have practically infinite resolution or more accurately tailored to exactly what is needed - which is very rarely the resolution of most MF digital sensors these days anyways. 

Documentary work is fundamentally different - the issue there is cultivating a greater public respect and interest in it. A tall order I’m not high on. 

Edited May 30 by pgh