S4 speculations

[Jeff S]

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38 minutes ago, Pieter12 said:

A few things. My point was that this discussion being in the S forum does not allow others to easily take part in it.

 

Duh, it’s about the successor to the S3. You know, Leica medium format; the whole thrust of this discussion. Sorry, but I find your point silly.  

Maybe we should eliminate all the LUF sub-forums to broaden every discussion. Maybe you should start a discussion in the Bar.  

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[davidmknoble]

Interesting.  This is a thread about the S system and speculation about the next evolution of the S system.  Others that don't visit the S forum will not take part in this discussion.  But anyone that is interested in the S system will likely find it.  I think that is the entire point about this post and where it is.

I do keep thinking that there are parts and methods with the R system and S OVF system that are important aspects to keep with the "S4."  I also hope that essential lens functions will be kept with existing S lenses when adapted to the new S4.  For example, the CS system and information needed for DOF.  It should be easy as the lens contacts are there.  I'm sure it won't work, but it would be really nice if the current S3 batteries were also used in the S4 so that one charger and battery system could run an S007/S3 and S4 body.

[irenedp]

i remember seeing a photograph (maybe about two years ago) of Leica cameras in development. A particular group had a resemblance to the SL, and one of those had a larger sensor  space. for what it looked, they were models made in clay or something very much alike. it is possible that a larger sensor will require larger  processor etc, and the future S4 -a convention … who knows what the name will be, although not massively unlikely- will be somewhat larger than today’s Sl, but not by a lot. There might be some family air. 

i think this group has done a pretty good job in defining features that are very likely to be on a future MF Leica if it comes to be.  

100 MP? very likely

IBIS? same. 

back illuminated sensor? same thing

High ISO capability, most likely. 

its own array of lenses? Necessary because of the distance to the sensor, although i think -and imagine I wouldn’t be alone- there would be adaptors for at least the S lenses, and maybe others. . 

one question mark for me are the sensors proportions (3x2 or 4x3). I imagine that although current MF cameras are 4x3, nothing impedes whoever Leica chooses as a manufacturer to make a 3x2. it would be a differentiating factor in the Leica brand tradition. I personally find 4x3 more usable for fashion, interiors, product… but in the end a 3x2 with or without in-camera crop could work just as well. 

Going back to the previous discussion about processing power and extra features, possible. But a very high capacity processor requires larger sizes and ventilation, so it has a derivative of weight and bulk. Ulikely, but we’ll see  

to wrap up my personal guess i would say: possible differences vs the competition: better lenses, leica color, maybe 3x2, and everything related to Leica’s brand halo and prestige. Whether a Leica price would be the icing, not surprised, and that’s why I was mentioning that a major source of customers would come from the brand itself. 

[Jeff S]

51 minutes ago, irenedp said:

i remember seeing a photograph (maybe about two years ago) of Leica cameras in development. A particular group had a resemblance to the SL, and one of those had a larger sensor  space. for what it looked, they were models made in clay or something very much alike.

This one?

https://leicarumors.com/2022/05/02/is-this-a-leica-s-mirrorless-medium-format-camera-mock-up.aspx/

[irenedp]

1 hour ago, Jeff S said:

This one?

https://leicarumors.com/2022/05/02/is-this-a-leica-s-mirrorless-medium-format-camera-mock-up.aspx/

Yep, that very one

 

[Leica Land]

my Leica S4 is the Fujifilm GFX 100ii Kipon S adapter

[BernardC]

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7 hours ago, irenedp said:

Going back to the previous discussion about processing power and extra features, possible. But a very high capacity processor requires larger sizes and ventilation, so it has a derivative of weight and bulk. Ulikely, but we’ll see  

The Lumix S1Rii uses the latest iteration of Leica and Panasonic's shared processor. It can do 40fps at 44 megapixels, so it should be able to handle 20fps at twice that resolution. That's certainly faster than anything I would want from medium format.

[irenedp]

Processors are becoming smaller. That’s good news in terms of performance 

[Tirpitz666]

5 hours ago, Leica Land said:

my Leica S4 is the Fujifilm GFX 100ii Kipon S adapter

Yes, I was about to write the same thing 🙂(but I only have the 100s, which is already overkill for my needs), was just waiting for confirmations that it really works as intended (even if there is no CS with that, so it won't really be a "true" S4 substitute)

Edited February 27 by Tirpitz666

[tom0511]

Am 24.2.2025 um 13:15 schrieb davidmknoble:

The S4 will come according to folks I’ve spoken with at Leica and I believe them.

I like the X2D as well, but when I spoke with the Hasselblad folks, they confirmed that while the system will work in misty conditions, the weak link is the bayonet mount for moisture intrusion.  That and almost every lens has a front barrel that moves in and out versus a fixed length lens.  

I wash off my S system with a gentle stream of water as necessary and shoot in pouring rain without worry.  I cannot do that with the Hasselblad system.

Leica’s strong point was the lens system.  That and if they developed really good IBIS in a mirrorless, it becomes an updated system.  I don’t think any of us can predict what professionals would do given a choice, but I’m confident they will be consulted.

The last S system was delayed for many reasons, and I suspect Leica will not announce the S4 until it is truly ready.

Current S lenses are not even mentioned on the Leica website any more.

I wish Leica would communicate more with their (potantial)  customers. Why cant they let us know more about their plans?

I hope a S4 will come one day, but I also believe life is too short to wait for things that might eventually happen one day or maybe not. 

After an announcement of a S4, how long will it take until one could buy one, and how long would we have to wait for new lenses, and how good or bad would the old lenses work on such camera (in regards of af-speed)?

 

 

 

[BernardC]

49 minutes ago, tom0511 said:

Current S lenses are not even mentioned on the Leica website any more.

I wish Leica would communicate more with their (potantial)  customers. Why cant they let us know more about their plans?

I hope a S4 will come one day, but I also believe life is too short to wait for things that might eventually happen one day or maybe not. 

After an announcement of a S4, how long will it take until one could buy one, and how long would we have to wait for new lenses, and how good or bad would the old lenses work on such camera (in regards of af-speed)?

The S replacement has been mentioned several times by several Leica execs. I doubt they'll tell us more than they already have until there is a product to sell. What we know so far is that it will be medium format, mirrorless, and that it will be able to use M, L, and S lenses, via adapters. There will be a new line of medium format lenses, but our S lenses will be supported. No mention of how that will work with CS lenses, unless I've missed something.

I doubt that the current S lenses will become AF speed champs overnight. I wouldn't count on them being any faster.

Leica has been criticized in the past by announcing products before they were available. I'm OK with waiting, my current S still does what I expect.

[tom0511]

vor einer Stunde schrieb BernardC:

The S replacement has been mentioned several times by several Leica execs. I doubt they'll tell us more than they already have until there is a product to sell. What we know so far is that it will be medium format, mirrorless, and that it will be able to use M, L, and S lenses, via adapters. There will be a new line of medium format lenses, but our S lenses will be supported. No mention of how that will work with CS lenses, unless I've missed something.

I doubt that the current S lenses will become AF speed champs overnight. I wouldn't count on them being any faster.

Leica has been criticized in the past by announcing products before they were available. I'm OK with waiting, my current S still does what I expect.

A roadmap for products wouldn't hurt.

While I still think the S is a great system, for me the x2d with IBIS, reliable AF in a smaller package works  better now for my usecase. If I would have known if there comes an S4 this year and which lenses I might have waited. I was thrilled with the S2 and S006, kind of revolutionary at its time IMO. The S007 was a fine evolution offering better high ISO. The S3 kind of announcement that the reflex will die, since they just put a new sensor in it and some minor changes. These lenses are so great, but why can't we get a body with precise AF and IBIS in the year 2025? I have put quite some money in the S system and also in some TL lenses and bodies. IMO Leica should have had developed and announced a New S last year, to show their commitment to people who have spent 50k and more in this system. 

In regards of AF: S lenses on the mirrorless SL2 are focusing slower and louder and more back and forth hunting than on the S007 or S3. It's not like Nikon or Canon SLR lenses adapted to mirrorless. So I am afraid using those lenses on an mirrorless S4 might not be more successful than using them on an SL2 (in regards of AF speed and noise).

Still hoping for an S4 though and afraid I might become weak when it appears if it appears.

 

[BernardC]

1 hour ago, tom0511 said:

While I still think the S is a great system, for me the x2d with IBIS, reliable AF in a smaller package works  better now for my usecase.

All of the medium format digital systems are excellent. If Hasselblad's system works for you, then there is no need to look elsewhere. You can always reassess when the S replacement is released.

[tom0511]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb BernardC:

All of the medium format digital systems are excellent. If Hasselblad's system works for you, then there is no need to look elsewhere. You can always reassess when the S replacement is released.

Yes. Having spent much much money on S lenses and owning 9 of them its strange to have to buy new lenses if one wants IBIS and an up-to-date body. I will still keep my S system, at the moment. I (and my bank account) would have much preferred to buy an S4 with maybe 1 or 2 smaller lenses, and continue to use my other S lenses instead of going to Hasselblad for now. But anyways, its a bit off topic so sorry for that.

 

 

[tom0511]

Still-will keep my S equipment for now as well - love the lenses too much to let them go for low prices. 

[ZHNL]

From hardware design POV, Hasselblad X2D set the bar quite high in term of design and quality price ratio. If they offer focal plane shutter, I have bought it. TBH, S has missed market opportunity by about 3 years. I do’t know what they were doing for all these years after 007.  
I do think S glasses are better compared to any other MF competitor such as Fuji/Hassy. They are too cheap to let them go. Using them on either OVF S or with adapter on FuJI sounds like a good plan for me. 
if S4s priced about the same or 1.2X X2D, I will be interested. If more, I won’t bother. The way Leica treat S line leave a lot to be desired. 

[Pieter12]

I would expect the imaginary S4 to be priced north of Phase One territory.

[davidmknoble]

This is why I don't worry about whether the S4 is coming soon or not, and exactly how it will work.  This is the S3 with the 35mm at f/13.  Not many systems this old can use such high f/stops and still get the colors and the light to work like the lens was wide open.  I took this November 30, 2024 (about 3 months ago). (click to see full res).

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[helged]

8 hours ago, ZHNL said:

From hardware design POV, Hasselblad X2D set the bar quite high in term of design and quality price ratio. If they offer focal plane shutter, I have bought it. TBH, S has missed market opportunity by about 3 years. I do’t know what they were doing for all these years after 007.  
I do think S glasses are better compared to any other MF competitor such as Fuji/Hassy. They are too cheap to let them go. Using them on either OVF S or with adapter on FuJI sounds like a good plan for me. 
if S4s priced about the same or 1.2X X2D, I will be interested. If more, I won’t bother. The way Leica treat S line leave a lot to be desired. 

If the memory serves me well (not always the case...), it was one of Leica's chief designers/technitians that went over to Hasselblad to complete the design and specs of the Hassy XD. Later, Leica spent a long time on S3. A Monochrome S3 was also in the pipeline. At that time, a mirrorless S would be a good move, and expected by many. With the development of the SL-line, Leica have long and presumably excellent in-house knowledge with mirrorless cameras, including with IBIS. The same holdes for the SL-lenses, forming a starting point for mirrorless S-lenses. 

I would think S4 is interesting for quite some of those already into the L-mount system,m (via use of electronic adapter; I am). For 'outsiders' to enter S4, the system needs a minimum of mirrorless S-lenses up-front. I guess this takes time, at least based on the roll-out of the SL APO Summicrons. 

[davidmknoble]

@helged, I have not heard that and it is interesting.  I don’t remember, was Hasselblad still “Hasselblad” when the XD was created? I am not a fan of their new lenses and I know those are not Hasselblad vintage because the company changed hands, but curious nonetheless.

I think (also not remembering), that there is likely a challenge on focus motors for larger lenses.  Even mirrorless, they are larger than the L series and the SL 50 ‘lux was a slow focus in part because of the heavy glass.

It could be interesting to put SL glass on an S mirrorless, but for me that defeats the purpose.  I use M, R and S glass on the SL system, but I have never used the “T” lenses with the APC crop on an SL.  It would seem the S mirrorless would still be too big for a backup body.  I would do this the other way around and use S Mirrorless glass on an SL though.