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1 hour ago, pgk said:

… I don't hanker after an M shaped SL …

I agree.  Such a camera would be pointless.  Why not make the next SL as comfortable in the hand as the X2D, but obviously smaller.  

An MEVF wouldn’t kill the rangefinder version.  It would just be an M camera with an EVF for those who prefer using the Visoflex for all the reasons outlined in the prior 40 pages, and in all the other threads.  Trying to turn such a camera into something else just wouldn’t work.  What would be the point?

Edited by IkarusJohn
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6 hours ago, Chris W said:

Two complete guesses.

In the music digital world, people are going back to vinyl. It's less convenient but people prefer the tactile product over the convenience of digital.

I imagine Leica are selling more Leica M's now than 20 years ago. In the 90's you rarely saw a Leica M. It was an expensive, niche camera.

I know a pro photojournalist who has an SL3 and an M11. He uses the M 90% of the time.

Anecdote for you here - I was talking to the manager of a Leica store once about the Leica customer.  He said there were usually 2 types [obviously you can also be both].

1. Wealthy, and walk in and buy up a whole system and lenses because they can, and are only in the store because it's 'Leica'.  They are buying the brand.

2. People who have saved up / or are very passionate about the process and love photography and using M cameras, lenses etc.

I fall into number 2.  I was fortunate to have the money, but also love the M [except for my glasses issues hence wanting an EVF].

He told me most customers of Leica fall into number 1 and I witnessed it first hand on multiple occasions.

So yes the M is still and expensive niche camera.  Its popularity mainly due to trend on old looking cameras bought by people with a lot of money.

I would prefer the M to look and operate in a thoroughly modern manner, have minimal controls, large screen and EVF.  It won't, as Leica are making more money out of these people who just want to buy cool and have the right brand and product around their necks to demonstrate so called wealth.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, jrichie said:

He told me most customers of Leica fall into number 1 and I witnessed it first hand on multiple occasions.

And yet I’ve not seen a single person on this forum identify as that person. It’s certainly an interesting dynamic and why it’s much harder for Leica than any other maker to identify who they should be making products for. 

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8 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

I agree.  Such a camera would be pointless.  Why not make the next SL as comfortable in the hand as the X2D, but obviously smaller.  

An MEVF wouldn’t kill the rangefinder version.  It would just be an M camera with an EVF for those who prefer using the Visoflex for all the reasons outlined in the prior 40 pages, and in all the other threads.  Trying to turn such a camera into something else just wouldn’t work.  What would be the point?

If they made the SL smaller, yes I would buy it, but they havent.

I agree MEVF wouldnt kill the the optical version.  I am sure they can retain the essence of the M, but also differentiate so it remains an M family but each is distinctive [a modern more minimal M and traditional M - digital and optical].

It ends up being more like a Q if that happens though which is why I said in an earlier post a Q body makes more sense to me.  However my bets are on, what you say, an standard M with minor changes and an EVF.

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Just now, Dazzajl said:

And yet I’ve not seen a single person on this forum identify as that person. It’s certainly an interesting dynamic and why it’s much harder for Leica than any other maker to identify who they should be making products for. 

yes, this forum is for number 2's ;)

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21 minutes ago, jrichie said:

Anecdote for you here - I was talking to the manager of a Leica store once about the Leica customer.  He said there were usually 2 types [obviously you can also be both].

1. Wealthy, and walk in and buy up a whole system and lenses because they can, and are only in the store because it's 'Leica'.  They are buying the brand.

2. People who have saved up / or are very passionate about the process and love photography and using M cameras, lenses etc.

I fall into number 2.  I was fortunate to have the money, but also love the M [except for my glasses issues hence wanting an EVF].

He told me most customers of Leica fall into number 1 and I witnessed it first hand on multiple occasions.

So yes the M is still and expensive niche camera.  Its popularity mainly due to trend on old looking cameras bought by people with a lot of money.

I would prefer the M to look and operate in a thoroughly modern manner, have minimal controls, large screen and EVF.  It won't, as Leica are making more money out of these people who just want to buy cool and have the right brand and product around their necks to demonstrate so called wealth.

That is stereotyped thinking, an unfortunate characteristic for a Leica store manager :(.

Edited by SrMi
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18 minutes ago, jrichie said:

yes, this forum is for number 2's ;)

I am that number 2 but I’d be totally fine with an upgrade to a 1.5 

Let’s be fair, if one’s budget stretches to. Leica, why not. I don’t believe that you get a better camera/lens for your cash but you do get a nicer one and the styling might not improve your photos but it is gorgeous. 

Edited by Dazzajl
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50 minutes ago, Dazzajl said:

And yet I’ve not seen a single person on this forum identify as that person. It’s certainly an interesting dynamic and why it’s much harder for Leica than any other maker to identify who they should be making products for. 

We've seen several examples of new members who have bought the latest M and a bundle of the most expensive lenses and don't know how to use a rangefinder. They certainly fall into category 1.

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58 minutes ago, Dazzajl said:

And yet I’ve not seen a single person on this forum identify as that person. It’s certainly an interesting dynamic and why it’s much harder for Leica than any other maker to identify who they should be making products for. 

Oh,,they pass by from time to time - and usually disappear after a few posts. 

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52 minutes ago, Dazzajl said:

I am that number 2 but I’d be totally fine with an upgrade to a 1.5 

Let’s be fair, if one’s budget stretches to. Leica, why not. I don’t believe that you get a better camera/lens for your cash but you do get a nicer one and the styling might not improve your photos but it is gorgeous. 

Fully agree that there should be a third choice in the list as there are those that might somewhat fall to one side or another or have one foot in both camps; in essence those two lists are not antithetical.


 

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3 minutes ago, RMF said:

Fully agree that there should be a third choice in the list as there are those that might somewhat fall to one side or another or have one foot in both camps; in essence those two lists are not antithetical.


 

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well I am a 1.5 too.  When I bought my M11 I had a very decent income and it wasn't a problem at all.

However I had wanted an M for 15 years and it was the first time I could afford one comfortably.  

The manager did state he much preferred selling to people who actually wanted one and were passionate.  Obviously he can tell the difference - it wouldnt be too hard.

However I dont think we should complain too much as Leica probably wouldn't be the same without these wealthy benefactors.

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20 minutes ago, jrichie said:

However I dont think we should complain too much as Leica probably wouldn't be the same without these wealthy benefactors.

I am probably a category 3: A very passionate Leica enthusiast, but could never have bought my camera if I hadn't won a lottery or inherited, as I did. If all Leica users were like me, they would have gone bankrupt a long time ago. 😄

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When I see that it is was impossible to travel through Germany last weekend because of the skiing holiday traffic jams, the prices in jam-packed restaurants, etc . I feel with all respect for those who have to scrape to buy Leica, that it is more a question of what to spend one’s money on than a lack of money. 

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1 minute ago, jrichie said:

well I am a 1.5 too.  When I bought my M11 I had a very decent income and it wasn't a problem at all.

However I had wanted an M for 15 years and it was the first time I could afford one comfortably.  

The manager did state he much preferred selling to people who actually wanted one and were passionate.  Obviously he can tell the difference - it wouldnt be too hard.

However I dont think we should complain too much as Leica probably wouldn't be the same without these wealthy benefactors.

I might not be able to afford the new leicas but I’m very happy to celebrate the purchases of anyone who can. 🍾🥂

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12 minutes ago, evikne said:

I am probably a category 3: A very passionate Leica enthusiast, but could never have bought my camera if I hadn't won a lottery or inherited, as I did. If all Leica users were like me, they would have gone bankrupt a long time ago. 😄

@evikne has hit the nail on the head.  I wish all the best to my fellow Category Three types. 

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Unrelated to money, I’ve noticed two groups of photographers using Leicas and mirrorless cameras in general:

1) those who look through a viewfinder

2) those that only use the lcd on back. 
 

I am baffled why someone would use an M11/35 Lux like a smart phone…and I saw this most recently last week at an event at the Leica store. Usually the lcd group shoots vertical like an iPhone. I’ve even seen someone use an SL3 lcd only…thinking you have the best EVF on the market right there.
 

I just don’t get it but I think an EVF M is not for lcd shooters….how strange to have an EVF and still use the camera lcd to shoot?

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