Dazzajl Posted February 17 Share #621 Posted February 17 Advertisement (gone after registration) I think the hybrid VF that Fuji use could be a very elegant solution for Leica too, with one button that switches through all or some of the available modes. Pure optical finder, standard rangefinder and normal M life. The optical finder with a small corner screen giving you a magnified/focus check section of the frame. EVF with focus peaking EVF with a digital rangefinder patch in the centre EVF with the entire frame showing the double rangefinder image Would that be enough to unite the factions? It's a tough place Leica are in with this one and I don't envy their task of trying to please all of the people. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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SrMi Posted February 17 Share #622 Posted February 17 3 minutes ago, Dazzajl said: I think the hybrid VF that Fuji use could be a very elegant solution for Leica too, with one button that switches through all or some of the available modes. Pure optical finder, standard rangefinder and normal M life. The optical finder with a small corner screen giving you a magnified/focus check section of the frame. EVF with focus peaking EVF with a digital rangefinder patch in the centre EVF with the entire frame showing the double rangefinder image Would that be enough to unite the factions? It's a tough place Leica are in with this one and I don't envy their task of trying to please all of the people. A hybrid viewfinder would be great if it does not compromise the current rangefinder in any way. Technology does not seem to be there yet. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazzajl Posted February 17 Share #623 Posted February 17 2 minutes ago, SrMi said: Technology does not seem to be there yet. Seems Leica need to throw some more money at Fuji then. Someone needs to make such a thing work and they'd be the best bet. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
evikne Posted February 17 Share #624 Posted February 17 6 minutes ago, Dazzajl said: Seems Leica need to throw some more money at Fuji then. Someone needs to make such a thing work and they'd be the best bet. It's probably a better solution to make two different cameras, otherwise we end up with “the worst of both worlds”. 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazzajl Posted February 18 Share #625 Posted February 18 4 minutes ago, evikne said: It's probably a better solution to make two different cameras, otherwise we end up with “the worst of both worlds”. Is that something Leica can keep doing? Splitting very niche products into smaller runs and more models of even more niche products. I don't really have a dog in this race and am just an observer. There is very little chance of me ever buying a new camera from Leica so they certainly don't want to base any strategies on my thoughts. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
phojomatic Posted February 18 Share #626 Posted February 18 Having used Fuji X-Pros professionally for nearly 10 years, I actually really hope Leica doesn't copy that system. Either go RF or EVF. Part of the reason that the Fuji optical viewfinder with aides isn't that useful is because on the whole, it's a very small eyepiece. Like looking at a postage stamp....and the SL is a poster, for comparison. What could be cool, and the tech was mentioned about five pages ago, is a hybrid display imposed onto the RF. Leica could maybe get rid of the metal finder masks that light shines through to create line pairs and actually give a single frame (or even pair frame, fine) WITH other info, like what we can see using a visoflex (and toggle that info on/off with the round button on back). I guess a floating histogram might make sense? On the rarest occasions I will turn that on with my Fuji and OVF. Having shot this weekend at night during a weird snow/rain/fog, I was having a tough time focusing on anything between my fogged glasses, RF windows, eyepiece, etc. But zone focus was my friend, so it worked out. I really thought would this be a good situation for a M-EVF, but honestly wasn't feeling a huge yes. When I shoot an M, I have one M....I don't carry a second, so I don't think I would start now. For the above, I think if I had a visio with me, that would have been good enough. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted February 18 Share #627 Posted February 18 Advertisement (gone after registration) 52 minutes ago, Dazzajl said: Seems Leica need to throw some more money at Fuji then. Someone needs to make such a thing work and they'd be the best bet. According to Leica, « they had conducted extensive trials of a hybrid system, combining both rangefinder and EVF. However, they had reached the conclusion that the result would be the worst of both worlds and would risk upsetting rangefinder fans. So the project had been shelved » (link). Apologies if this has been quoted above. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazzajl Posted February 18 Share #628 Posted February 18 14 minutes ago, lct said: According to Leica, « they had conducted extensive trials of a hybrid system, combining both rangefinder and EVF. However, they had reached the conclusion that the result would be the worst of both worlds and would risk upsetting rangefinder fans. So the project had been shelved » (link). Apologies if this has been quoted above. That is a great shame but to be fair, they also said that it wasn't possible to fit a full frame sensor into an M body at one time Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robb Posted February 18 Share #629 Posted February 18 Just give us two designs electronic like the SL series “with ibis” and the standard M rangefinder… Robb 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Photon42 Posted February 18 Share #630 Posted February 18 The IBIS may not fit into the M body. I'd hope otherwise, however. We will see. Leica tried to integrate an EVF into the rangefinder body some time back, but not to the level they would be satisfied (at the present state of technology). In the end, the M needs to feel and operate like an M. The curse of an icon. The introduction of a parallel model in my eyes is a smart move to test the waters and experiment with classic rangefinder digital focussing aids. Maybe I should be saving up for it ... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevejack Posted February 18 Share #631 Posted February 18 There's an interesting discussion with Garry Winogrand HERE (starting at 26:35) where he talks about the differences between the rangefinder and the SLR, and it's also relevant to the difficulties using a Visoflex/EVF which have been brought up in this thread. What's he's basically saying is that at 28/35mm you NEED assistance from a rangefinder/split image to be able to focus because at those focal lengths everything looks sharp. So the rangefinder is the correct tool of choice. What's more interesting though, is what he thinks about being able to see through the lens in general. When you see what the lens sees, it "forces the photographer to design and make a picture... in the end make basically an illustration. They're not photographic tools generally speaking". He goes on, saying that "I defy you to resist how what you see in that viewfinder will manipulate... and it will manipulate you into designing a picture". He's talking specifically about at long lenses, being able to see what's in focus, see what's out of focus - but it's applicable to being able to see what the camera sees under any circumstances I think. It's an interesting viewpoint, and for someone like me who likes to make a picture rather than take a picture... and to be able to see the end result via the EVF essentially before I take the picture.. I think it makes me better understand Winogrand's work and how he viewed photography as a whole. 4 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derbyshire Man Posted February 18 Share #632 Posted February 18 8 hours ago, Dazzajl said: Seems Leica need to throw some more money at Fuji then. Someone needs to make such a thing work and they'd be the best bet. I've got both and the Fuji implementation is a very poor impersonation of a rangefinder. The EVF isn't great either for manual focussing. I understand these were the conclusions Leica came to as well. Unless something has changed if an EVF camera comes it's a variant rather than replacement. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smogg Posted February 18 Share #633 Posted February 18 I am sure that Leica will present us with a worthy solution, as this will be an important product for the company. So in any case, we can count on a very premium execution of all components of the new camera, including the EVF (whatever new Leica integrates there). 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smogg Posted February 18 Share #634 Posted February 18 It's interesting to fantasize about the name of the new camera: Leica D1/E1? Leica D12/E12 (as a precursor to the M12)? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted February 18 Share #635 Posted February 18 I’m always rather surprised when I see people say an EVF isn’t great for manual focusing - my experience is that it is very good for focusing 50mm and longer, wide open. Especially with magnification. But then, those who don’t like it won’t get it. Far be it from me to say what people can and can’t do. Some need AF. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazzajl Posted February 18 Share #636 Posted February 18 1 hour ago, Derbyshire Man said: I've got both and the Fuji implementation is a very poor impersonation of a rangefinder. The EVF isn't great either for manual focussing. I understand these were the conclusions Leica came to as well. Unless something has changed if an EVF camera comes it's a variant rather than replacement. Just for clarity, I’m not suggesting the Leica simply adopt the hybrid finder as it is in the X100/Pro. I’ve had nearly all the iterations of both and enjoyed them but the optical side of the VF has never felt like using an M. But IF a new design started with the M rangefinder and then added in the digital side, with focus aids designed from the start for manual focus lenses, then maybe something that is joyful to use and practical could be produced. Or perhaps Fuji should step and take the opportunity. It’s been a very long time since they made a real rangefinder. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smogg Posted February 18 Share #637 Posted February 18 30 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said: I’m always rather surprised when I see people say an EVF isn’t great for manual focusing - my experience is that it is very good for focusing 50mm and longer, wide open. Especially with magnification. But then, those who don’t like it won’t get it. Far be it from me to say what people can and can’t do. Some need AF. The key words here are “wide open”. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeleElmar135mm Posted February 18 Share #638 Posted February 18 vor 13 Minuten schrieb Smogg: The key words here are “wide open”. ... and the other key words are 50mm and magnificatiom. an EVF with 21 or 28 or 35 in manual mode are not very useful (among other things, too much depth of field and an image that is too small) ... and magnification makes it not much butter but slows down the camera. In anaog times (DSLR) we have the microprisms. Even with them you were quicker than the magnification ... 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Photon42 Posted February 18 Share #639 Posted February 18 1 hour ago, Smogg said: It's interesting to fantasize about the name of the new camera: Leica D1/E1? Leica D12/E12 (as a precursor to the M12)? E12 for "elektronischer Sucher", indicating the tech level being on par with the M12 ("Messsucher") - my five cents. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted February 18 Share #640 Posted February 18 Jan 27 - M12 Jan 28 - M12P Jan 29 - M12M Jan 30 - M12D Jan 31 - M12Evf Jan 32 - M13 A natural progression. But it leaves Leica with the headache of when to launch the Hello Kitty, Jackson Pollock and Lenny Kravitz special editions. 2 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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