EVF M rumoured

[lct]

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Different experience and/or feeling here. There is little point in comparing AF to MF, IMHO, the only valid comparo is that of M lenses on mirrorless cameras vs the exact same lenses on the M11, not an M10 or other retro cameras. When doing so, i find the EVF faster than the RF for good enough focusing (focus peaking) as i don't have to focus-recompose this way, and a bit slower but more precise for nailing focus (focus peaking + focus magnification). I always use auto zoom at working aperture with the M11 though. Not to say that i dislike the RF experience i've been using for 50+ years, but i just take it for what is it, a focus aid some people may like more or less, or not at all. YMMV.

Edited September 3 by lct

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[pgk]

2 minutes ago, lct said:

..... the only valid comparo is that of M lenses on mirrorless cameras vs the exact same lenses on the M11, not an M10 or other retro cameras.

i find the EVF faster than the RF for good enough focusing (focus peaking) as i don't have to focus-recompose this way, and a bit slower but more precise for nailing focus (focus peaking + focus magnification)

But any EVF-M has far more competition out there than other rf-M cameras unless it is to be marketed as merely a niche within a niche.

And focus peaking is ok but not as precise as using focus magnification which, in my experience, is required to compete with rf on shorter lenses.

So we come back to the same set of problems; who would an EVF-M be aimed at and where do its (photographic as opposed to desirability/aesthetic) abilities lie?

In all honesty my Sony A7 series cameras offer nearly everything, other than an optimised sensor and magnified focus based on lens movement, that an EVF-M would offer, other than of course form factor, as do SL series cameras. Is there a sufficient/viable market for a high priced, optimised sensor and focus movement aware EVF-M camera? I know you want one bt do enough others?

[UliWer]

10 hours ago, beewee said:

I would love to see Leica add some electronic contacts in addition to the 6-bit coding that would enable some form of digital communication between lens and body, similar to how ROM enabled R-mount lenses were able to communicate aperture information to the body. This could also benefit image quality in that having accurate aperture data would help with lens profile corrections, whether it’s done in-body or in post-processing for things like vignetting. It could potentially also improve on other forms of color corrections as well.

I am very happy that my lenses for the M will work without all this; the two exceptions being the 21mm Super-Angulon and the 19mm LTM Canon Lens (both about 60 years old), no lens detection or data about the aperture will help them.  I expect any new lens for the M to „work“ without any electronic aids. The camera‘s sensor should be able to cope with all sorts of modern lenses. 

[lct]

5 minutes ago, UliWer said:

I am very happy that my lenses for the M will work without all this; the two exceptions being the 21mm Super-Angulon and the 19mm LTM Canon Lens (both about 60 years old)  [...]

I have no experience with LTM Canon lenses but both Super-Angulon 21/4 and 21/3.4 work fine with the M11.  I see no reason why it would be different on the EVF-M (or M11-V).

[Keith (M)]

When it comes to marketing I hope they do not over-egg the pudding (X-Vario, I'm looking at you...) 

[costa43]

22 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

What's the benefit of electronic coding? All it can do is tell the camera exactly what aperture is in use, rather than the camera making an (educated guess).

For electronics to be of real value, the lens would have to be able to be focussed wide open, and then stop down for shooting - requiring a motor in the lens - with added bulk - and enough battery power to operate it.

I'm not sure as to what else the chip offers but the functionality the manual focus chipped lenses offer on other systems is improved over the non chipped beyond just an accurate aperture reading. I just find the idea of tracking with manual focus an interesting one if using an EVF. If Nikon can do it, so can Leica, how they do it is less important imo but interesting enough to waffle about it a bit 🙃

[lct]

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Unclear what new functionality you're expecting actually. Chipped lenses had a function on (d)SLRs but how about manual lenses on mirrorless cameras? I mean besides more accurate exif data that wouldn't justify such chips anyway.

[costa43]

1 hour ago, lct said:

Unclear what new functionality you're expecting actually. Chipped lenses had a function on (d)SLRs but how about manual lenses on mirrorless cameras? I mean besides more accurate exif data that wouldn't justify such chips anyway.

Tracking with manual focus lenses on an EVF is what I would like to see. My limited knowledge on the matter makes me think it is the electronic contacts that help this become a reality with Voigtlander lenses on the Z mount but it could be more to do with the AF algorithms and phase detect points on the sensor. I don't actually know, I just know that it would be a nice to have if using an EVF camera and would remove the need to zoom in to focus so often, allowing us to see the scene as it is at all times.

[charlesphoto99]

Manual focus lenses with an EVF only will be the death knell of using the M for any kind of fast moving subjects for most users. Of course if one is just photographing static subjects on holiday it will be a great boon to those users I presume. 

[lct]

2 hours ago, costa43 said:

Tracking with manual focus lenses on an EVF is what I would like to see.

Would you mind to elaborate? Sorry i have no idea about that tracking thing.

[lct]

2 hours ago, charlesphoto99 said:

Manual focus lenses with an EVF only will be the death knell of using the M for any kind of fast moving subjects for most users.

Not the first time i read this. Since when has the rangefinder been the better focus aid on moving subjects? There is a learning curve of course but it is the same with the EVF. In this matter as in others, practice is the key.

[charlesphoto99]

2 hours ago, costa43 said:

Tracking with manual focus lenses on an EVF is what I would like to see.

That's called moving the lens' focus ring with the subject. Easy to do with the rf, no EVF needed. Turn lens to the left as the subject approaches, to the right as it retreats

[charlesphoto99]

3 minutes ago, lct said:

Not the first time i read this. Since when has the rangefinder been the better focus aid on moving subjects? There is a learning curve of course but it is the same with the EVF. In this matter as in others, practice is the key.

If one does not use the pop magnification, ok. If I was using an EVF and trying to focus this image, I most likely might have missed the moment. The power of the M that everybody seems to gloss over for the obsession with the form factor is the ability to see what else is happening around the frame, or might be coming into the frame, and the ability to react quickly because one is seeing it all in real time, as it is, straight through a window. But yeah, YMMV. 

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[IkarusJohn]

8 hours ago, pgk said:

In all honesty my Sony A7 series cameras offer nearly everything, other than an optimised sensor and magnified focus based on lens movement, that an EVF-M would offer, other than of course form factor, as do SL series cameras. Is there a sufficient/viable market for a high priced, optimised sensor and focus movement aware EVF-M camera? I know you want one bt do enough others?

I think there’s the answer. New buyers (ie, those with no experience of M cameras) would be attracted to the beautiful M lenses, the traditional manual control and the form factor. 

That buyer then has a choice of OVF or EVF. For many, the EVF will be more familiar and more attractive than what might appear to be an anachronistic and clumsy OVF. 

For existing M owners, not having to use the Visoflex and being able to use lenses outside the range where the OVF shines (21mm, 75mm and longer, zooms and adapted R teles) will be attractive. For many the SL isn’t attractive at all. 

 

[JNK100]

13 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

I think there’s the answer. New buyers (ie, those with no experience of M cameras) would be attracted to the beautiful M lenses, the traditional manual control and the form factor. 

That buyer then has a choice of OVF or EVF. For many, the EVF will be more familiar and more attractive than what might appear to be an anachronistic and clumsy OVF. 

For existing M owners, not having to use the Visoflex and being able to use lenses outside the range where the OVF shines (21mm, 75mm and longer, zooms and adapted R teles) will be attractive. For many the SL isn’t attractive at all. 

 

I realise I am an outlier in my opinion, but I cannot see who what the target market for this alleged new M is.

The main reason I wanted an M was the RF and OVF experience and connection. An EVF M would probably halve battery-life too.

One can buy an M11 with a Visoflex today and have both OVF and EVF. What would an M without the OVF but with a Visoflex built-in really add? I can see why there would be some demand for a higher-quality Visoflex though.

Alternatively, an SL with the adaptor works very well and is another option as is a body and adaptor from other brands.

 

[lct]

5 minutes ago, JNK100 said:

One can buy an M11 with a Visoflex today and have both OVF and EVF. What would an M without the OVF but with a Visoflex built-in really add? I can see why there would be some demand for a higher-quality Visoflex though.

Depends on tastes i guess. I don't need an higher-quality EVF but i would happily do without the bump of the Visoflex2. I would keep the M11 though unless the M12 brings significant novelties. 

[pgk]

1 hour ago, charlesphoto99 said:

If one does not use the pop magnification, ok. If I was using an EVF and trying to focus this image, I most likely might have missed the moment. The power of the M that everybody seems to gloss over for the obsession with the form factor is the ability to see what else is happening around the frame, or might be coming into the frame, and the ability to react quickly because one is seeing it all in real time, as it is, straight through a window. But yeah, YMMV. 

Manual follow focus 'was' a hard learned ability. I remember talking to a sports photographer working for the national dailies who said it took him twenty years to become proficient enough to lose few shots that mattered. Then autofocus came along and he had real competition from technology. But yes, it can be useful to see beyond the frame and it is possible to predict and react to situations with practice. Its not an area I can see an EVF excelling in though if used with manual focus lenses.

[costa43]

2 hours ago, charlesphoto99 said:

That's called moving the lens' focus ring with the subject. Easy to do with the rf, no EVF needed. Turn lens to the left as the subject approaches, to the right as it retreats

I absolutely love the rangefinder. There is nothing I want more than a basic Leica M digital camera. If this EVF M becomes a thing though, it would be nice if they really went for it and gave us all the bells and whistles. This is the correct platform for this type of thing. Leave the standard OVF M alone and go nuts on this. 

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[jaapv]

1 hour ago, lct said:

Depends on tastes i guess. I don't need an higher-quality EVF but i would happily do without the bump of the Visoflex2. I would keep the M11 though unless the M12 brings significant novelties. 

So basically you don't want an EVF M but an unbumped M11?🤩

[Smogg]

1 hour ago, JNK100 said:

I realise I am an outlier in my opinion, but I cannot see who what the target market for this alleged new M is.

The main reason I wanted an M was the RF and OVF experience and connection. An EVF M would probably halve battery-life too.

One can buy an M11 with a Visoflex today and have both OVF and EVF. What would an M without the OVF but with a Visoflex built-in really add? I can see why there would be some demand for a higher-quality Visoflex though.

Alternatively, an SL with the adaptor works very well and is another option as is a body and adaptor from other brands.

 

I don't plan to buy this camera myself, as I only shoot in the 28-50 range. If only out of curiosity: I'll buy it, play with it and sell it 😂 However, there are those who shoot with wide lenses, the camera will be convenient for them to build a composition. On lenses wider than 28, you can only get by with zone focus. At the same time, Visoflex ruins the ideal shape of the camera and has a noticeable lag.