EVF M rumoured

[charlesphoto99]

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Why would they keep the rf cam in a camera with no rangefinder? Doesn't make sense at all. RF cams need to be calibrated from time to time - or come from the factory out of calibration, like several brand new M bodies I've purchased - and the idea behind an EVF is doing away with all of that 'nonsense' (as some people see it). If there's no rf patch then there's no need for a complex linkage to... what even??  

[Le Chef]

Since the only way you know whether an M lens is in focus, is the connection between the barrel focusing ring and the cam. Take away the cam and how will the EVF know it’s in focus? Remember there are no electrical connections. And Leica won’t change that aspect of M lenses as it would immediately make every new lens incompatible with older cameras.

[LocalHero1953]

Surely the roller is no more needed in a EVF M than in any other EVF camera? The camera doesn't need to know what's in focus, it presents it to the user in the EVF.

I can't help thinking I'm missing something in this argument!

Something that senses the cam movement would be useful for triggering magnification as a focus aid, but that doesn't need a calibrated roller.

Edited July 9 by LocalHero1953

[lct]

In LV mode, the roller cam is the only way to trigger image magnification by simply turning the focus ring of coded or uncoded M or adapted LTM lenses. Works fine on the M11 already.

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[charlesphoto99]

41 minutes ago, Le Chef said:

Since the only way you know whether an M lens is in focus, is the connection between the barrel focusing ring and the cam. Take away the cam and how will the EVF know it’s in focus? Remember there are no electrical connections. And Leica won’t change that aspect of M lenses as it would immediately make every new lens incompatible with older cameras.

I can now see the need for the cam (or perhaps a simpler equivalent) as a mechanical linkage to let the camera know a lens is on there and trigger focusing aids, but it shouldn't have any bearing on how an EVF works - knowing focus is by viewing the screen while moving the lens barrel and using the squiggly lines and magnification if set up that way. There's no AF - the camera is 'dumb' in that sense, so it's not relying on the cam for the actual focus in EVF mode, it's relying on the user to move the lens barrel to where they feel it is intended for proper focus. The cam links to the rangefinder patch, which has no bearing on the EVF, esp as the rangefinder can be off calibration, and yet the EVF correct. 

Edited July 9 by charlesphoto99

[charlesphoto99]

39 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Surely the roller is no more needed in a EVF M than in any other EVF camera? The camera doesn't need to know what's in focus, it presents it to the user in the EVF.

I can't help thinking I'm missing something in this argument!

Something that senses the cam movement would be useful for triggering magnification as a focus aid, but that doesn't need a calibrated roller.

I would think an internal sensor of some sort in the camera mouth that senses the movement of the lens helicoid would be more effective and free up space as well. 

[lct]

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Why complicating things? The roller cam works fine as is on the M11.

[SrMi]

3 hours ago, JNK100 said:

To me it is better to wait until the launch of this rumoured camera than to endlessly speculate.

If there is such a camera to be launched the design will have been ' frozen' in any case..

But what to do with our spare time? Go out and photograph? Nah ....

[Guest]

51 minutes ago, Le Chef said:

Since the only way you know whether an M lens is in focus, is the connection between the barrel focusing ring and the cam. Take away the cam and how will the EVF know it’s in focus? Remember there are no electrical connections. And Leica won’t change that aspect of M lenses as it would immediately make every new lens incompatible with older cameras.

The sensor itself is able to determine if the subject is in focus, in exactly the same way that an AF camera does. The only difference is that we need our fingers instead of a motor and our eyes choose the AF zone. With the M11 currently we only have focus peaking that shows the in-focus areas.

https://www.sony-semicon.com/en/technology/camera/index.html

[Rick in CO]

Had to crash this posting from the other I started in the Q3 forum: M-V or Q-M?

How about a Q-M, ie. M lens mount on the Q body.  

This might be the most direct pathway to an M-mount camera with EVF.

Jaapv pointed out that the Q3/43's interlens shutter assembly would have to be removed along with the lens.

That might dictate an electronic shutter only, an easy remedy, if not universally popular.  

Perhaps provide room for IBIS?  That would be the only radical change.  It's in the Panasonic DC-S9.

[JNK100]

5 minutes ago, Rick in CO said:

Had to crash this posting from the other I started in the Q3 forum: M-V or Q-M?

How about a Q-M, ie. M lens mount on the Q body.  

This might be the most direct pathway to an M-mount camera with EVF.

Jaapv pointed out that the Q3/43's interlens shutter assembly would have to be removed along with the lens.

That might dictate an electronic shutter only, an easy remedy, if not universally popular.  

Perhaps provide room for IBIS?  That would be the only radical change.  It's in the Panasonic DC-S9.

This has been discussed many times.

I am not an opto/electronic design engineer so I cannot comment but it seems others have this expertise.

Leica will do whatever they believe is right for their business irrespective of what comments are made here.

 

 

 

[LocalHero1953]

16 minutes ago, Rick in CO said:

Had to crash this posting from the other I started in the Q3 forum: M-V or Q-M?

How about a Q-M, ie. M lens mount on the Q body.  

This might be the most direct pathway to an M-mount camera with EVF.

Jaapv pointed out that the Q3/43's interlens shutter assembly would have to be removed along with the lens.

That might dictate an electronic shutter only, an easy remedy, if not universally popular.  

Perhaps provide room for IBIS?  That would be the only radical change.  It's in the Panasonic DC-S9.

The first phrase in bold is in total contradiction to the other three

You may not have noticed that the S9 has no VF, electronic or optical.

Edited July 9 by LocalHero1953

[FrozenInTime]

17 minutes ago, Rick in CO said:

Had to crash this posting from the other I started in the Q3 forum: M-V or Q-M?

How about a Q-M, ie. M lens mount on the Q body.  

This might be the most direct pathway to an M-mount camera with EVF.

Jaapv pointed out that the Q3/43's interlens shutter assembly would have to be removed along with the lens.

That might dictate an electronic shutter only, an easy remedy, if not universally popular.  

Perhaps provide room for IBIS?  That would be the only radical change.  It's in the Panasonic DC-S9.

The Q series has a combined sensor and lens module. I guess in theory this assembly could be swapped out for a shutterless M-mount.

The main downside would be the M-mount flange would need to extend beyond the current Q body shell; the sensor-flange distance in a M is 27.8mm.

https://www.macfilos.com/2019/10/14/leica-q-strip-down-now-put-it-all-together-again/

This would however be looked down upon as a poor long term solution,  and Leica would not be able to demand as high a price compared to a classic M body style.

 

 

[costa43]

Irrespective of whether it’s possible or easier to have a Q-M, I think people may actually want an M camera with an EVF more than they want just an M mount camera with one. The demand has been there for some time. You’d think this has a lot to do with how Leica will approach. 

Edited July 9 by costa43

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, costa43 said:

..... I think people may actually want just an M camera with an EVF more than they want an M mount camera with one....

Assuming you're correct, I wonder how many people have bought the Visoflex 2 for their M? I have one, but don't enjoy using it and certainly would not want that to replace the OVF. However, the number of Visoflex sales might influence Leica's decision making.

Interestingly, Leica haven't even added the capability to zoom in on the EVF when using crop, either in M or Q series. So their commitment to a "modern" EVF solution has been lacking to date.

Looking at this thread one thing's sure, even we M diehards can't agree what we want in an EVF product.  Good luck to Leica in keeping a majority of current users happy with their new solution.

The easiest path might be for Leica to introduce a small body SL camera much as Sony has done with the a7CR and A7CII. Effectively a Q size camera with SL capability. You then get to use AF lenses and M lenses.

Edited July 9 by Corius

[lct]

5 minutes ago, Corius said:

Interestingly, Leica haven't even added the capability to zoom in on the EVF when using crop, either in M or Q series. So their commitment to a "modern" EVF solution has been lacking to date.

Not sure to follow you. On the M11, image magnification works together with the digital zoom too. Or perhaps i'm missing something?

[Guest]

Just now, lct said:

Not sure to follow you. On the M11, image magnification works together with the digital zoom too. Or perhaps i'm missing something?

I'm taking about the 1.3x and 1.6x Digital Zoom feature on M11 and similar on Q. Focus magnification does work, but the image is not zoomed to fit the full EVF display when not using focus peaking

[lct]

I have no idea about the Q but on the M11, when focus magnification is triggered, the image is actually zoomed to fill the full EVF display.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, lct said:

I have no idea about the Q but on the M11, when focus magnification is triggered, the image is actually zoomed to fill the full EVF display.

Sorry, I'm not being clear, if you don't use focus magnification, the cropped area is shown as a rectangle within the full image area. Every other camera that provides a digital zoom expands the zoomed area to fit the entire EVF display. It's much worse on a Q where you end up with a tiny area if you use a high digital crop, and given that it is primarily an AF camera you don't tend to use focus peaking. 

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Edited July 9 by Corius

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[jaapv]

59 minutes ago, FrozenInTime said:

The Q series has a combined sensor and lens module. I guess in theory this assembly could be swapped out for a shutterless M-mount.

Not for an M mount, the register distance is too long. Maybe an L mount and adapter.