raizans Posted February 5 Share #1 Posted February 5 Advertisement (gone after registration) https://www.dpreview.com/news/8799733255/canon-shows-why-optical-and-in-body-stabilization-both-have-a-place Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/419064-why-the-m-needs-ibis/?do=findComment&comment=5751990'>More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 5 Posted February 5 Hi raizans, Take a look here Why the M needs IBIS. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
SrMi Posted February 5 Share #2 Posted February 5 39 minutes ago, raizans said: https://www.dpreview.com/news/8799733255/canon-shows-why-optical-and-in-body-stabilization-both-have-a-place Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! That graph shows only the benefits of cooperation between IBIS and OIS. It is very doubtful that there will be M lenses with OIS. 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecar Posted February 5 Share #3 Posted February 5 Also, advances in sensor technology (in conjunction with post-processing denoising algorithms) imply that increasingly higher ISOs become very usable. In turn, this allows for higher speeds at the selected aperture. Sure, IBIS would be nice, but going forward I'm not sure it will be *needed* for the majority of use cases. Of course, someone will always want to turn night into day, but AFAIC I'll take a better sensor (and a smaller body if that's part of the trade-off) over IBIS any day. 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNK100 Posted February 5 Share #4 Posted February 5 This graph does not show why the M needs ibis.... I do not understand why it was posted. 6 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post TeleElmar135mm Posted February 5 Popular Post Share #5 Posted February 5 The question is how to get the IBIS into the M - and which one Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 6 21 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/419064-why-the-m-needs-ibis/?do=findComment&comment=5752048'>More sharing options...
JNK100 Posted February 5 Share #6 Posted February 5 Glossy I think for the glossy BP body. 1 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M11 for me Posted February 5 Share #7 Posted February 5 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) With the actual M11 sensor the ISO capabilities are great. It is under normal conditions no problem to choose 4 times focal length so that IBIS is not needed. On the other hand I immediately hear the argument that for long exposures (lets assume ½ second) you definitely need either IBIS or a tripod. But to my understanding we always need light to take fotographs so that long exposures are not needed (neither a Summilux is needed) unless you try some experimental or artistic shots. I do not use the M for such experiments. I just made a few shots of my wife in a room last night with nice ambient light at f/2.0 and 4xfocal lenght. It resulted in ISO 3200 which is perfect for M11 sensor. Many themes are disussed just based on myths or lyck of experience. Why does @raizans not just try it out many shots and report about his/her own experiences? Or else explain his publishes chart. What is his conclusion? Why did he choose the title? By the way: The article is about Canon. Canon bodies uses IBIS. Besides that many Canon lenses have IS built in but many have not. Based on that the Canon user is interested about what to do and what settings to use in either case. You can switch off both or use one of the 2 or both. You have to understand what you do. But this is sonething fully different to Leica M. Edited February 5 by M11 for me 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Almizilero Posted February 5 Share #8 Posted February 5 vor einer Stunde schrieb Ecar: Also, advances in sensor technology (in conjunction with post-processing denoising algorithms) imply that increasingly higher ISOs become very usable. In turn, this allows for higher speeds at the selected aperture. Sure, IBIS would be nice, but going forward I'm not sure it will be *needed* for the majority of use cases. Of course, someone will always want to turn night into day, but AFAIC I'll take a better sensor (and a smaller body if that's part of the trade-off) over IBIS any day. One of the great advantages of image stabilization is that it usually also stabilizes the image in the viewfinder. This is quite a big deal with longer lenses on DSLR-style cameras. But would not help at all with a rangefinder style camera. I'm pretty sure it will be introduced to the M in the future, but it's not something I am really waiting for. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Richardson Posted February 5 Share #9 Posted February 5 All joking aside, I do think that if it is possible to add without changing the shape or mount of the M, adding IBIS would benefit the camera. At this point the very high sensor resolutions are extremely demanding on users and lenses (and the focusing mechanism), and IBIS would help give an edge. Certainly IBIS is more helpful to image quality than increasing ISO. Although ISO performance has gotten better and better, there are no cameras that have better image quality at high ISO than they do at lower ISOs. IBIS gives you a chance at lower noise, higher dynamic range and processing flexibility. Of course, if you have to freeze action you don't have a choice, but in scenes where subject movement is not the main danger, having IBIS really raises the keeper rate. That said, with 60-100 mp and IBIS the M is starting to stray pretty far from its original design specification. Focusing the current rangefinder design with the required precision and accuracy for such high resolutions is getting really challenging to engineer on both the body and lens side. I wonder if the M range might be headed for either a split or a stasis point soon. Certainly the SL cameras are a better platform for the fully EVF style experience. In any case, IBIS is very practical and there are definitely times when I wish I had it in the M, but it also a bit of a feeling that maybe there are systems that are better suited to that kind of technology. 1 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
costa43 Posted February 5 Share #10 Posted February 5 I find with the m10r that at slower shutter speeds there can be some minor motion blur. Barely detectable but it just takes the edge off some shots. On previous M models, this was not the case. Besides the crisper images IBIS will give us, it is the creative side that can also benefit. I can handhold my SL2s at 1/2 second and even a little slower. This is cool for selective motion blur. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
_leicaguru Posted February 5 Share #11 Posted February 5 11 minutes ago, Stuart Richardson said: At this point the very high sensor resolutions are extremely demanding on users and lense That's a self inflicted issue. It shows the M doesn't need IBIS. The M needs to go back to a 40MP sensor. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
_leicaguru Posted February 5 Share #12 Posted February 5 2 minutes ago, costa43 said: I can handhold my SL2s at 1/2 second Great. Shoot the SL2 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted February 5 Share #13 Posted February 5 1 hour ago, _leicaguru said: That's a self inflicted issue. It shows the M doesn't need IBIS. The M needs to go back to a 40MP sensor. The advantage of IBIS is obvious, even with a 40MP sensor camera. Sony A7r2 mod in my case. Very slow shutter speeds are not required to show that. Last time i tried was with an Elmar-C 90/4 at 1/100s. I will retrieve the shots if colleagues are interested here. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
evikne Posted February 5 Share #14 Posted February 5 (edited) Won't it be a bit strange with IBIS when you can't see the effect in the viewfinder? Only after the picture is taken will you see the result (and you’ll never know for sure if you should thank IBIS or your steady hand). 😉 Edited February 5 by evikne Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
_leicaguru Posted February 5 Share #15 Posted February 5 (edited) 35 minutes ago, lct said: I will retrieve the shots if colleagues are interested here. Not me thanks. 90mm at 1/100s is called the reciprocal rule. Anyone who knows how to hold a camera properly can do this. Maybe because of your age your hands aren't steady. In that case maybe you should consider something other than rangefinders. I would stick to your Sony. It's good for bad eyes and shaky hands as you age. Edited February 5 by _leicaguru Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted February 5 Share #16 Posted February 5 10 minutes ago, _leicaguru said: Not me thanks. 90mm at 1/100s is called the reciprocal rule. Anyone who knows how to hold a camera properly can do this. Maybe because of your age your hands aren't steady. In that case maybe you should consider something other than rangefinders. I would stick to your Sony. Charming. I'm an old block with steady hands fortunately. And i use both Leica and Sony cameras. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted February 5 Share #17 Posted February 5 4 hours ago, Ecar said: ...Sure, IBIS would be nice... For an M? This is a matter which, it could be suggested, is open to much debate......😸...... Philip. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
_leicaguru Posted February 5 Share #18 Posted February 5 (edited) 13 minutes ago, lct said: Charming. I'm an old block with steady hands fortunately. And i use both Leica and Sony cameras. Sounds like a classic case of age-related tremors sneaking up on you. Sometimes, they’re so subtle that the brain adapts and filters them out, so to you, your hands seem perfectly steady—kind of like a mild form of sensory anosognosia. Shoot it at 1/250 if your hands can no longer handle the reciprocal 1/f rule. Edited February 5 by _leicaguru Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smudgerer Posted February 5 Share #19 Posted February 5 (edited) 7 minutes ago, _leicaguru said: Sounds like a classic case of age-related tremors sneaking up on you. Sometimes, they’re so subtle that the brain adapts and filters them out, so to you, your hands seem perfectly steady—kind of like a mild form of sensory anosognosia. Well I'm in the getting wobbly category myself, it's annoying but with other inconveniences associated with getting this far up the tree I just accept it and modify how I do stuff, with the M usage my minimum shutter speed is generally 1/250 sec', unless I have a wall to lean on............ Added: Also I wouldn't like the "purity" of the M rangefinder to be further over-bloated with any more electronic stuff than there already is in the current digital M cameras just because some old farts like myself can't stop trembling and need IBIS or whatever else to get them through their photographic days.....Perhaps a Leica branded tripod screw mount on a Zimmer would then be my next wish-list item. Edited February 5 by Smudgerer 3 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
_leicaguru Posted February 5 Share #20 Posted February 5 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Smudgerer said: Well I'm in the getting wobbly category myself, it's annoying but with other inconveniences associated with getting this far up the tree I just accept it and modify how I do stuff, with the M usage my minimum shutter speed is generally 1/250 sec', unless I have a wall to lean on............ Yea personally I hardly ever shoot slower than 125s. There's no point in me shooting at less than 1/250th because I'm shooting people moving and I usually want to freeze their motion 1/500s if I'm also moving and 1/1000s if I'm shooting animals especially birds. I absolutely have 0 need for slow shutter speeds unless I want to see the motion blur. Also small imperfections just make the picture when you're shooting a rangefinder. It adds to the charm of it. I don't know why some M shooters here want to pursue absolute perfection. The M rangefinders were never about that. So what if a photo has a bit of shake? If it's good it's good. Sometimes a little shake makes the shot. Edited February 5 by _leicaguru 4 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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