Wate 16/21 Elmar is the end of M Zoom history?

[Vip]

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I had read on Leica rumours that leica ended the production of the Elmar 16/21. This is a sad news as was an excellent lens ( that was stollen to me recently) and because is the last M zoom.

There is any idea if will be replaced?

Which was the difference between the two versions produced, if anyone knows as I am looking for a replacement?

[farnz]

In case you're not familiar with it, there was also a M-mount zoom lens made by Konica, the 21 to 35 mm f/3.5 to f/4.0 Dual M-Hexanon.  They are rare now but very well-built and perform very well.  I have owned one for more than 10 years and it's an excellent, true zoom lens.  It is not quite as wide-angle as your 16-21 Tri-Elmar but you might find it interesting.

Pete.

[RexGig0]

The Leica Rumors site is not always correct. The demise of the WATE has been predicted, in the past, but then, another batch would be produced. Leica Store Miami shows the Wide Angle Tri-Elmar-M to 16-18-21mm be in stock, as a new item.

Edited to add: B&H Photo Video, in New York USA has two pre-owned Wide Angle Tri-Elmar-M 16-18-21 lenses in stock.

 

Edited January 16 by RexGig0

[UliWer]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Vip:

Which was the difference between the two versions produced, if anyone knows as I am looking for a replacement?

There was (is?) only one version of the Wide-Angle Tri-Elmar. The 1:4/ 28-35-50mm Tri-Elmar has seen two different versions: first with 55mm filter thread, later with 49mm filter thread. The later mechanics are said to be better, as the first version had some mechenical issues when you choose the focal length.

As RexGig0 said: don’t trust the rumors until they become facts. Many Leica lenses have been declared dead and are still alive. On the other hand there is no problem to find a „WATE“ second hand (which is the main cause for slow and perhaps end of production in Wetzlar).    

[lct]

There is a new copy available in Paris apparently and Fotodotti seems to have a second hand copy in Italy.
As for versions, i'm aware of only one but i may be wrong.
Order # 11626 w/o viewfinder
Order # 11642 with viewfinder
Specs attached below.

LeicaM_161821_tech_red.pdf

[jdlaing]

51 minutes ago, farnz said:

In case you're not familiar with it, there was also a M-mount zoom lens made by Konica, the 21 to 35 mm f/3.5 to f/4.0 Dual M-Hexanon.  They are rare now but very well-built and perform very well.  I have owned one for more than 10 years and it's an excellent, true zoom lens.  It is not quite as wide-angle as your 16-21 Tri-Elmar but you might find it interesting.

Pete.

+1

 

[Vip]

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Dear ICT, thank ypu so much for quick and kind answer I meant the there is an old version ( I was said) mechanically different ( regardless having or not viewfinder) so if any one has information please tell me

 

[Vip]

Thank you to all for taking care of my (easy and unimportant trouble) indicating where can be find and alternative to Leica. With gratitude.

[lct]

27 minutes ago, Vip said:

[...] meant the there is an old version ( I was said) mechanically different ( regardless having or not viewfinder) so if any one has information please tell me [...]

I am not aware of such different versions sorry. It could be that the person who told you that was mistaking the WATE (16-18-21/4) for the MATE (28-35-50/4) which has two versions, but i may be wrong.

[JNK100]

4 hours ago, Vip said:

I had read on Leica rumours that leica ended the production of the Elmar 16/21. This is a sad news as was an excellent lens ( that was stollen to me recently) and because is the last M zoom.

There is any idea if will be replaced?

Which was the difference between the two versions produced, if anyone knows as I am looking for a replacement?

It's not a zoom lenses of course though ( sorry to be pedantic).

[lct]

The WATE looks like a zoom and works like a zoom so it is a ... 😄

 

Edited January 16 by lct

[Vip]

Dear Uliver thank you for the clear and precise explanation of the real difference between the two version. I had never found it before 

[Vip]

Jnk100

sorry you are right it is not a zoom it is a trifocal lens but in the common use it was very effective and with excellent performance in my experience , and I miss that 

[3D-Kraft.com]

The WATE can be used at every position between 16 an 21 mm, so for me it is a zoom

Edited January 17 by 3D-Kraft.com

[adan]

I have no idea whether the 16-18-21 has been discontinued.

I would note the following:

1) the 16-18-21 was originally introduced for use on, and alongside, the 1.333x cropped digital M8, in 2006. On which it allowed the preservation of the classic "21-24-28" fields of view in a single new lens. That particular "marketing need" has mostly faded away. Most M8 users already have long had a 16-18-21 - if they needed those views.

2) the 16-18-21 was permitted some optical faults (which are cropped away on an M8): weak corner MTF, and significant (>3%) and complex "moustache" distortion, which is simultaneously barrel (near the center) and pincushion (near the corners). And therefore tricky to correct with computer math, if used on the M9 and later full-frame Leica digital Ms.

3) there is fierce competition in the super-wide M lens arena, from multiple sources, that now produce better image quality in fixed focal lengths from 10mm to 21mm.

4) which may mean that 16-18-21 sales volume no longer supports the costs of continuing production.

5) Leica is not a charity - there is no point for Leica to produce (and make boxes and paperwork for, and warehouse in inventory) lenses that cost a lot to produce, and are no longer world-class optically - and are only suitable for a niche-within-a-niche-within-a-niche market. And are therefore minimally profitable.

6) Leica did produce a "better" superwide eventually - the stand-alone 18mm Super-Elmar-M f/3.8 (2009). And already discontinued that lens (along with all their 24mms), as simply no longer a worthwhile product.

7) So it is quite possible that the 16-18-21 has met the same fate.

8 ) If so, I doubt it will be replaced directly - Leica might possibly come out with a fixed-focal-length 15 or 16mm prime lens, with better perfomance. I believe a code for a 15 or 16mm f/2.8 was found, once upon a time, in a Leica M firmware version.

9) "Discontinued" is somewhat of a relative term for Leica. Leica produces different lenses in batches rather than "on-demand." If a given lens is a very slow seller, Leica may discontinue making it - and STILL be providing lenses to dealers for another 2-5 years, out of the "last batch" of perhaps 500-1000 sitting around in the warehouse.

10) I have noticed dealers with multiple used 16-18-21 lenses available at once - from time to time - which would tend to indicate a "slow market" for them. They simply do not leap off the shelves, although they do sell eventually, at decent prices (>$4100). At the moment they seem to be less common, used.

The "drug on the market" (supply exceeds demand) at the moment seems to be used 90 APO-Summicron-M-ASPHs. One dealer lists thirteen of those looking for buyers.

Edited January 17 by adan

[Vip]

Dear Adan,

excellent you give me a clear complete view of the issue 

[adan]

Cool! So maybe I add:

"8a) Or - maybe Leica introduces a "cine-sized/priced" 16-18-21, with the older version's defects corrected."

[lct]

The WATE is a zoom indeed but it has not the special setting for closeups the MATE has at about 40mm and it has not its ugly flare either at 50mm. Great lens on the M11 and the digital CL too. Too expensive to sell i guess. I got mine second hand but i doubt i would spend 6,000 EUR for it today...

[charlesphoto99]

All one really needs is the 18mm Elmar, which is a fantastic lens. A few (or less) steps forward, or back, and/or a bit of cropping after the fact, will pretty much give one what the WATE does, for a lot less money and weight and size. 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Nie wieder]

It's not the end.

Venus optics just released a 12-24mm for Leica M.