Why I love and hate the Leica M

[hdmesa]

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4 hours ago, Velo-city said:

this is probably the most pro-Leica place on the internet

Did the name of the forum give it away?

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[charlesphoto99]

1 minute ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I'm puzzled by your approach. Aside from the carefully composed photos, how do you shoot? Point the camera from your waist? Some other angle? Without looking through the viewfinder? Of course that is a perfectly valid way of taking photos, but to imply that those who don't do this only have a M for aspirational reasons and would be better off with another camera is a bit extreme IMO.

I'm not trying to be extreme. And this approach doesn't work for everybody, nor for I depending on the situation. It's not something I always do, but I'm bringing it up in regards to the cry for an articulated screen. When one knows exactly what the image looks like before pressing the shutter, we are 'reproducing.' Which is great in commercial applications, but leaves very little room when it comes to making art. One can't even see the depth of field with an M, so all of that has to live in your imagination. Film is unpredictable, and that is why it has an enduring legacy. It's for the 'look,' but the reason is one doesn't always know what that 'look' might be, or even if one got the photo at all, for days or weeks even. With a lot of digital, we've managed to take most of the mystery out of making images, and that mystery, for me, is often where the magic happens. 

[colonel]

I had a X1Dii and it took the best pictures of any camera that I ever had. For those that think that MF is only marginal gains over FF, I can say that with the right lens, you can see that it is capturing detail that is incredible.

why do I use the M system more ? Simply because the X series is just over the threshold of too heavy me, considering I walk around for hours with the camera held in my wrist. Secondly manual focus the Leica way is the best way to focus anyway. Thirdly it attracts much less interest on the street. There are many other reasons. It’s all personal taste.

[earleygallery]

Making conclusions after one week? Seriously?

Leica did invest greatly in developing a focus assurance system. It’s called a rangefinder and comes included in your new camera. You just need to get used to using it I guess.

The M system was used by many world famous photographers who produced some iconic images in all kinds of situations, so your issues are personal to you and it might just be that the M system isn’t for you, but I’d suggest giving yourself (much) more time with it before coming to any conclusions.

[jaapv]

10 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

When one knows exactly what the image looks like before pressing the shutter, we are 'reproducing.'

Really? Whatever happened to visualisation? How can you start when you don't know where you want to end up?

[LocalHero1953]

9 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

I'm not trying to be extreme. And this approach doesn't work for everybody, nor for I depending on the situation. It's not something I always do, but I'm bringing it up in regards to the cry for an articulated screen. When one knows exactly what the image looks like before pressing the shutter, we are 'reproducing.' Which is great in commercial applications, but leaves very little room when it comes to making art. One can't even see the depth of field with an M, so all of that has to live in your imagination. Film is unpredictable, and that is why it has an enduring legacy. It's for the 'look,' but the reason is one doesn't always know what that 'look' might be, or even if one got the photo at all, for days or weeks even. With a lot of digital, we've managed to take most of the mystery out of making images, and that mystery, for me, is often where the magic happens. 

Quite a few artists have an idea of what they are trying to depict and how - painters (with some exceptions) don't just throw paint at the canvas to be pleasantly surprised by the result. You imply that anyone who uses an EVF is not creating art but just reproducing (even though with most EVF cameras you don't see depth of field by default - the viewing is with the lens wide open). 

I disagree with how you describe M photographers who don't do things the way you do ('reproducing', 'commercial', 'aspirational owners', 'better off with another camera'), but it's always good to hear how other people see things.

[Altair]

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3 minutes ago, Crem said:

The downfall of the M will be Leica trying to cram every modern feature into it because that’s what the market wants. Tilt screens, hybrid EVF/OVF, more menu options, more features, IBIS, 1TB internal storage, etc. I won’t be surprised if the M13 needs to have an AI chip to do object detection for face and eye tracking because manual focus is too challenging.

My hope is Leica splits the M model into two separate products… Give people a Sony like robotic M with every feature and charge some absurd amount for it. I’ll never buy it, but I hope Leica gets richer from it.

Then use those robot camera profits to make a stripped down and simple rangefinder like the M10-P with some updates. Better battery and the SL2-S sensor would be nice.
 

Splitting the M into several products is exactly the right idea. I think the following is what is needed for Leica to grow

SL....they are hitting the nail on the head

M.....doing a dine job for Range finder purists

Q...great one package product

QM hybrid product....Basically a Q with interchangeable lenses

And an M with nothing else added to the traditional M but a tilt or articulating screen and a more advanced focus assist system for those with poor eyesight or are new to the M and would still like to take advantage of the benefits of this legendary system....the glass....the size....the quality....and easier to use and learn.

 

I think this is where they are headed. In the meantime will take the advice posted here and try to master pure rangefinder for another month

 Who know

..

 

[lct]

23 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Quite a few artists have an idea of what they are trying to depict and how - painters (with some exceptions) don't just throw paint at the canvas to be pleasantly surprised by the result. You imply that anyone who uses an EVF is not creating art but just reproducing (even though with most EVF cameras you don't see depth of field by default - the viewing is with the lens wide open). 

I disagree with how you describe M photographers who don't do things the way you do ('reproducing', 'commercial', 'aspirational owners', 'better off with another camera'), but it's always good to hear how other people see things.

+1 and with an EVF the viewing is at working aperture on M cameras.

[DigitalHeMan]

8 minutes ago, Altair said:

And an M with nothing else added to the traditional M but a tilt or articulating screen and a more advanced focus assist system for those with poor eyesight or are new to the M and would still like to take advantage of the benefits of this legendary system....the glass....the size....the quality....and easier to use and learn.

 

I think you're describing the SL range

[pgk]

I have no idea how I do it, but I'm still using M9s and, despite their archaic, obsolete technology, I am able to take shots which are in focus, well exposed and predictable in how they turn out. I always shoot in manual, always use the rangefinder and can't think of any shots missed due to being slow. I have though been using M cameras for 45 years and some of this could be due to a smidgen of experience. Adding crutches and more features such as tilting screens only adds more complexity, increases decision making and as a consequence will only serve to slow things down. M cameras are in essence simple; you just need to learn how to use them within their limitations. Practice, practice, practice.

[DadDadDaddyo]

Perhaps this is about the difference between liking something vs. liking the idea of something. 

Sometimes, I think, people come in to the Leica world because something about it attracts them to it. It's about the idea of it, more than the reality of the experience. 

This happens along a lot of vectors and in circumstances other than Leicas, or even cameras. 

Sometimes it manifests itself as a bizarre kind of self-image consciousness. Kind of makes my teeth grind... 

"I like how it looks better than other cameras I've tried. "

"Does it go with my safari vest?"

"Do I look like a real photographer?"

Or my favorite, "Does this camera make my butt look big?"

Well, I've never actually heard that one, but you see what I mean...

So folks, ask yourselves: what is the Leica brand, thing, Little Red Dot, what have you, doing for you? Why are you drawn to it?

Are you hoping people will notice? Ask you about it? Conclude something about you as a photographer because of it? Conclude something about you as a person because of it?

The only relief comes in realizing that there are such folks for every brand that's out there. Just go to the various forums and you'll run into them.

Maybe I should order a photo vest that has printed on the back, "Just ignore me, please. I'm trying to make pictures here"

...... as long as the vest goes with my camera bag, that is. 

[jaapv]

1 hour ago, Altair said:

QM hybrid product....Basically a Q with interchangeable lenses

How can that be? The Q is a lens-sensor-shutter unit with an M-style inspired body tacked on.

[jaapv]

1 hour ago, Altair said:

In the meantime will take the advice posted here and try to master pure rangefinder for another month

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/125097-the-original-faq-thread/?do=findComment&comment=1371853

I don’t want to demoralize you, as you will certainly improve satisfactory within a month, but it will be years instead of months before your eye-brain perception and muscle memory are trained to the point that the focusing is fully instinctive. 

[charlesphoto99]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

Really? Whatever happened to visualisation? How can you start when you don't know where you want to end up?

Hmm, I'm sorry, I think the morning's migraine was making me not that logical. Of course visualization is key, the most important element, the begin all, end all. Without some idea of the end point of the image, you are really not acting as photographer, but merely a recorder. My point is one shouldn't rely on the camera FOR their visualization. It's why we learn the zone system and manual exposure first - to not rely on the camera to visualize what we consider important.

If you are in a narrow European alley with a sliver of light coming from one end, which is the subject to you and therefore need properly exposed, the alley your'e left in darkness, the camera may easily be fooled. Maybe your subject is in the bottom of the frame, in that sliver, and program AF easily gets thrown and focuses on the building across the street from th end of the alley. And that is not what you visualized. And while one can fumble with settings, a simple brain calculation and flick of the lens focus ring, and then moving quickly the shutter speed dial and/or aperture ring to where you know it should be (because you were just out in light like that and remember the setting in your head) and then not hesitating and pressing the shutter at the right time (most important to always try and do, whether you have the other settings perfect or not, because you never know, it may be right enough,a nd that moment can't be recreated). 

My current project most of the photos need to be perfectly horizontal (using a 135mm APO). Very hard to do in camera with an M so I have to often fix that after the fact. I think what M's do, or at least do for me, is simplify the process of creating. I can think about that other stuff later. Sure, I miss some stuff with a fully manual M that I wouldn't have otherwise. When I photographed my son's rowing regatta the other day I brought a Nikon with 300. Even that wasn't long enough. 

For me, the M somehow doesn't create as much 'tunnel vision' as SLR's and EVF cameras do (and in my career I'm best known for the SLR work I did). There's a freedom and a looseness I discovered that wasn't there for me with other cameras, though using a flash and relying on zone focusing - to a degree - allowed me a similar looseness with my Nikons, but the focusing part just wasn't there like it is with the M rangefinder. But even that took awhile. One needs to learn how to use the rangefinder first, in conjunction with the manual focus lenses, and then trust it, trust the process. That can take months, years, decades even. Or more likely, I think, an ongoing process for all, as it is for me. 

 

[hdmesa]

33 minutes ago, jaapv said:

How can that be? The Q is a lens-sensor-shutter unit with an M-style inspired body tacked on.

The Q leaf shutter is in the Q lens, isn't it? Or did they position the leaf shutter behind the lens?

In any case, a stacked sensor with super fast readout time would eliminate the need for any shutter at all. Given the pricing of Leica cameras in general, I'm surprised they're still using slow readout sensors. The SL3 for example could have used the base silicon/sensor used in the A1 and dropped the mechanical shutter completely. 

[evikne]

1 hour ago, DadDadDaddyo said:

Perhaps this is about the difference between liking something vs. liking the idea of something. 

Sometimes, I think, people come in to the Leica world because something about it attracts them to it. It's about the idea of it, more than the reality of the experience. 

This happens along a lot of vectors and in circumstances other than Leicas, or even cameras. 

Sometimes it manifests itself as a bizarre kind of self-image consciousness. Kind of makes my teeth grind... 

"I like how it looks better than other cameras I've tried. "

"Does it go with my safari vest?"

"Do I look like a real photographer?"

Or my favorite, "Does this camera make my butt look big?"

Well, I've never actually heard that one, but you see what I mean...

This reminds me of my 14-year-old daughter. She wants an electric guitar for Christmas (and she will get one), but she has barely touched a guitar. She doesn't know any notes and isn't the type who likes to practice. She has only seen cool rock guitarists and wants to be one of them. She's got the “right kind” of clothes and makeup, but she has no idea what she's doing.

I bet by New Year's Eve she'll be bored. 😈

[pippy]

14 hours ago, Altair said:

...I love the idea of an M...

This is, without the slightest doubt, the root of your 'problem'.

You don't love the Leica M; you love the idea of the Leica M.

There are, essentially, two options open for you. First is that you accept that the M is not for you; dump it and use what does work for you.

Second would be to learn how to use it for what it is rather than for what you wish it to be.

Best of luck.

P.

[M8X2]

vor 14 Stunden schrieb Altair:

I really hope the M12 takes the lagacy of M and makes for a truly dependable modern camera that can take full advantage of legacy lenses. Just a tilt screen and the real challenge, groundbreaking focus peaking technology. 

I would make it more ergonomic, add a handgrip and make it so that I could also attach an AF lens if I wanted to. I would call such camera "SL3".
 

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[setuporg]

Upon re-reading this thread, I think we should be more open-minded to the newcomers' fresh impressions.  It't not very often that folks arrive outside of the OG echo chamber and can articulate their first reactions.  Eg a tilt screen seems a good development for the Q series bit the M would rather shed the screen altogether.  It's probably counterintuitive for most photographers outside of the M system.  I'd encourage folks to stick with it, and moreover I'm now very fond of going back in time for a while, dwelling on the 240/246 generation.  The matching M9M/M9P and M10R/M10M pairs await.  The question is what you can do with them.  Eg street photography with a 24mm can be done without much focusing.

[roydonian]

1 hour ago, DadDadDaddyo said:

So folks, ask yourselves: what is the Leica brand, thing, Little Red Dot, what have you, doing for you? Why are you drawn to it?

My first camera was a Zeiss Ikon Signal Nettar. But being at the teenage stage when one would read both sides of a postage stamp (my late mother's phrase!), I read my way through my father's 'Leica Manual' and 'Leica Way'. Being familiar with his Leica IIIb, I became aware how well-made Leitz products were compared with the Ilford Sportsman, Agfa Silette, and Braun Paxette hardware that graced the shelves of my local camera shop. So several years later, I bought my first Leica.