Do you shoot wide open or stopped down? (Noctilux, APO Summicron, modern Summilux)

[charlie_s]

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Karbe's preference to shoot wide open: In this presentation by Peter Karbe (with Leica Australia), Karbe speaks multiple times throughout the video about shooting modern M lenses wide open. He says things like "you should always shoot these modern M lenses (post 2000's, e.g., modern Summiluxes, APO Summicrons, 0.95 Noctilux) wide open, unless you need the added depth of field, that's what you are paying so much for", and later on even jokes that the cameras should have a Windows PC like notification that pops up, "are you sure?" when the user tries to stop the lens down. I should also note that Karbe strikes me as someone who is really passionate about the drop-off of background, the "3D" effect that shallow DoF gives, and in the video seems to get especially excited when talking about the Noctilux 0.95 lens, something he seems to use a lot personally.

Sharpness tradeoff: This confuses me a bit, however, versus the conventional teaching of stopping down to f/5.6-8 for maximum sharpness & performance of a lens. Karbe suggests rather directly in his presentation that this conventional teaching applies more for older lenses, but not for the modern lenses he is designing. In particular, I'm trying to figure out how this relates to sharpness and the MTF data. Even though these lenses perform extremely well wide open, they do get sharper (at least according to the MTFs) when stopped down, say to f/2 or f/4.

tldr/ question: What do you all make of this dichotomy? How do you approach setting your aperture?

[f8low]

Freeing photographers from thinking about anything but the creative elements is a great mission statement, no? 🙂

I don't think he's suggesting wide-open beyond its creative purpose though you have to forgive him a certain excitement about the technical extremes of this mission. The mission is certainly most challenging for the team at open aperture.

Two observations from my own practice:

• If a certain amount of DoF is 'wanted' it's often more attractive to err on the 'more' side because 'less' would hurt the shot more. Of course, this is a matter of experience (estimating DoF) or being able to repeat the shot.
• Some landscape shots with 35mm or less would in principle work wide-open because the whole motive would be within the DoF (think mountain panorama) but I notice I do stop down. This certainly comes from the perception of probably loosing 'something' in terms of reproduction quality and not loosing anything on the creative level (I want maximal DoF anyway). Speaking as a modern Summilux user 'only'.

Edited October 14, 2024 by f8low

[lct]

I'm no artist but that Karbe's statement sounds ridiculous to me. Like telling a violinist that he should play high notes with a Stradivari and low notes with a Guarneri or vice-versa.

[84bravo]

Why spend all that money if you're not going to use that Summilux magic? 😉 

[CP93]

> Do you shoot wide open or stopped down?

Yes.

[erl]

Prime rule: Let the motif drive your decisions. You are supposed to be a photographer, not a gear fiddler. Karbe has at least one axe to grind, not to mention a few lenses .Fair enough. But remember what he first and foremost is and that is a lens designer, who incidentally would be very pleased if you bought his wonderful lenses, and they are wonderful. Trust me, I use them and I know. Now deciding how to use them to best advantage is the real conundrum. Like Karbe, I am a (frequent) wide open shooter. Not because I can or because I paid so much for the lens, but because wide open can do two things for me. 1. Give me more light than stopped down. I frequently shoot in the 'dark'. 2. It gives me added emphasis to that which I consider the subject of my motif, by rendering most of everything else OOF.

My particular Noctilux is an f1 model and its particular rendition of light is very 'painterly' and warm. No other lens does exactly what the f1 Noct does. Sometimes I go so far as to use a ND filter to open it up in strong light, just draw the image the way it does, when wide open. It is not the sharpest tool in the box wide open. So what. I don't need a shave anyway.

Stopped down it is no grouch, but heavier than my Lux or Cron, so I choose from those three carefully.

[mikeamosau]

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2 hours ago, CP93 said:

> Do you shoot wide open or stopped down?

Yes.

The correct answer! 

[evikne]

When I had some modern Karbe lenses, I used to shoot mostly wide open. As soon as I stopped down, I found the images became too clinical, harsh, boring. Wide open, they at least had some character.

Now I use only older designs. These I usually stop down a bit for better sharpness, as they used to do in the “old days”. 

[erl]

As I have always said, each artisan must choose his own tools.

[250swb]

I hope in my photographs there is more than one thing to be interested in, so I have never chanted the 'wide open' mantra and hardly ever/almost never shoot wide open. And if DOF is needed I'll also use f/16 or f/22 because generally speaking making sense of the subject and communicating my intent far exceeds worrying about a bit of diffraction.

It's worrying when demonstrating the attributes of a lens takes centre stage over everything else. Instead of a photographer being proud of what he or she has achieved they devalue themselves to become mere lens owners adamant that each image should show off the specific characteristics of the lens they've invested in. It's as fatuous as thinking art is made depending on the type of brush you buy, and if it were true how do you feel knowing thousands of other 'artists' have bought the same brush and are creating exactly the same art? So I think Karbe's gushing statement is coming from a technician and not an artist, somebody who is selling lenses and not understanding that self expression isn't about copying what Leica says but doing what the heck you like with all those extra 'unnecessary' f/stops they've made you buy.

[LocalHero1953]

I only drive my car at top speed.

[LocalHero1953]

10 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

there is really NO NEED to stop down shoot wide open, apart from the need for DOF or artistic expression.

Which version is correct?

Edited October 14, 2024 by LocalHero1953

[costa43]

It’s a little pedantic but my view is that I do not think Karbe’s statement is true, it’s a slightly exaggerated statement to emphasise how good the wide open performance is compared to older lenses. I’d bet that most lenses he has made perform better stopped down to f4 than wide open.  All the ones I have tried improve in the corners and mid frame a couple of stops down. There are differing degrees of improvement granted, the APO lenses are marginal at best but the 0.95 and Summilux lenses do improve at infinity, close up, mid frame and corners if technical excellence is what you are after. 

[KFo]

Just over a year ago we took a little holiday.  I took two lenses. Which is unusual for me as I'm normally a one lens guy.  They were my Summilux 35 ASPH (2018) and Hektor 135 f/4.5 (1958).   I put a 6 stop ND filter on the Summilux and shot it wide open for the entire holiday.  The reason I did this was that I was feeling in a bit of a rut creatively so I wanted to push some boundaries back with respect to my thinking and image creation.

I really enjoyed the creative tweek on the holiday and I found the results pleasing.  It is definitely a different look to my frequently used "f8 and don't be late" mode.   Just like using my favorite lenses which are old crummy lenses by current web forum standards (Canon LTM 28 & 35 f/2.8 (1958)) I like the control over the image with respect to aperture.  The old crummy lenses change dramatically over the range between f/2.8 and 5.6.  It's not just the DOF that you control there are some subtle changes to the look of the image even with modern expensive highly evolved lens designs.  I don't feel like those things necessarily show up in a lens test but become apparent with actual use in the types of photos you actually shot.   Ya gotta incorporate that into your thinking and composition.

I'd grab my Summilux any day now and slap the ND filter on it and run it wide open.  Just depends on what I'm doing.

[LocalHero1953]

21 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

The one I wrote.
No need to stop down apart from the need for bigger (deeper) DoF or artictic expression requiring bigger DoF.

But why? I could reverse this statement 'no need to open wide........' and still ask 'why?'.

To which my answer would be 'the aperture you choose has very little to do with the lens itself, and almost everything to do with the image the photographer intends to capture'.

And if someone asks 'why do you buy a f/1.4 lens then?', I would reply 'because sometimes I use f/1.4 - when the subject demands it'.

Edited October 14, 2024 by LocalHero1953

[rogxwhit]

Sharpness can be satisfying, but I would never be influenced by charts.  The ruling consideration is the 'picture space', which involves lighting, framing, composition and where the focus is placed. 

Edited October 14, 2024 by rogxwhit

[Pika898]

Depends on the scene, wide open if I want subject separation, stopped down if the whole scene matters.

[TomB_tx]

Thankfully I don’t have any Karbe lenses in my Leica collection so I can ignore his advice.

[lct]

Glad to have Karbe lenses but the way to use them is my business 🙄

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[erl]

I honestly don't know if any of my lenses are karbe, now that I think about it. It doesn't matter. The ones I have are fine tools and allow me to perform at my best.