M11M - Validate my thinking

[david911]

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I very much enjoyed shooting with an M6, 35, 50, and 90 summicrons in the late 1990s. I did my own darkroom work as well, didn't enjoy that so much. I gave that all up, switched to digital, bought and sold an x100 multiple times, but ultimately stopped taking pictures, except with my iPhone, which is not any fun.

A big birthday and my retirement is coming up quick, and I want to recreate the fun times I had, and I will have time and some cash to spend. Some things I am certain about:

1. I only want to shoot BW
2. I have no interest in video
3. My goal is to make physical prints, not create digital content
4. I am not the kind of person who will obsess at a pixel level, and I am unlikely to look at a print with a magnifying glass (though I still have my loupe from looking at negatives and contact sheets!)
5. The whole process of taking (making) a photo is important to me. I want to do things manually. I think this is what turned me off with the Fuji. If automation is there, I'll use it, even though it doesn't make me happy (similar to having an automatic vs a stick in a car)
6. Most of my pictures will probably be "found landscapes", but of course there will be a mix

My thinking is that an M11 Monochrom and 35 and 90 summicron lenses is going to do the trick. I am somewhat tempted by a regular m11, as it is cheaper, but think keeping it simple with Monochrom is the best.

Do you all think this sounds like it will work? Any suggestions? 

Also, what is the simplest, reasonable route from camera to print? Is it really Lightroom, photoshop, and silver efex? Seems pretty complicated compared to the old days.

I'll probably need a dedicated printer - are there any especially for BW? or just the usual Epson and Canon models

Thanks for your help,

 

David

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[jaapv]

Any of the Monochroms would suit your needs. You could buy used, say an  M10M and put your money towards lenses. As for printers, as long as the printer has an extra grey cartridge any of the brands offer interesting models. The paper you chose is more important. For B&W I prefer Canson Baryta.  And refine your postprocessing skills. Photoshop all the way for me. Take a workshop or two. 

[T25UFO]

Welcome to the forum.

I have had previous Mono cameras and now use M11M with 35mm and 50mm lenses.  Both APO versions.  I've always found 90mm difficult with a rangefinder and you can easily crop the 50mm with such a high resolution sensor.  I like some of the new features in the M11M (USB C charging etc) but @jaapv is right, you wouldn't see any difference using M10M.

I use Canon PRO300 printer, which is really good value.  Have tried various papers - Canon Premium Matte works well with B&W.  I use the Canon Professional Print & Layout program for printing, usually with +20 brightness and sometimes +5 contrast.  Print quality is excellent.  Hope this helps.

[Viv]

I think that either of the two cameras would meet your needs.

I have never used a Monochrom camera, but the M11 produces B/W images that satisfy me. I often wonder how much better the images from a Monochrom camera would be.

For processing, I use Capture One. The learning curve is steep, but the results are good, bearing in mind that my processing is always minimal.

As has been said, shooting with a 90mm lens on a rangefinder camera is not easy. I have done it, but didn't enjoy it.

I would go for 21mm, 35mm and 50mm lenses, from Zeiss or Voigtländer. Leica lens prices are exorbitant and not worth the marginal increase in image quality..

Any decent printer will produce good results, provided good paper is used.

[newtoleica]

I recently gave up myB&W darkroom after decades. Lack of time for the faff was putting me of shooting. Have used digital as well for some projects for many years but want ever fully happy with the output, but that has now changed….

Starting in order of priority - backwards.

prints - a modern pigment printer - I chose an Epson P700 as it has a carbon black cartridge. I’m currently using Epson ‘Traditional Photo Paper’ and people all say, wow… lovely prints. There are Canon alternatives so read around as it will depend on usage, ink cost etc. I’m delighted. 
 

workflow - Adobe Lightroom. silver effects pro is helpful for shortcuts, film emulation end local edits and I recommend looking at it as it’s way more ‘darkroom mindset’ than photoshop. Be prepared to boost clarity and contrast a lot to get good prints.

camera - I don’t think you need to necessarily go for the M11 over the M10 - loads of threads on this. I have an M10-P but also could easily use an M10-M. I think the differences in output between converted colour and B&W files are small and may not be noticeable if you print at normal sizes. So you need to think whether the extra cost is worthwhile. I decided an additional camera (Q2) had more use for me.
 

lenses. - whatever you want but again don’t necessarily  be pulled to the newer v expensive ones. There are wonderful lenses and some great bargains in older Leica glass (I use a v1 35 Lux ASPH for example) 

hope that helps?

[jgeenen]

I am thinking about getting a M Monochrome as well. Since I do have a M11, the M11M would be the best match for me as I can use the same accessories (batteries e.g), have the same camera setup etc. 

For post processing I  don't use a special toolset. I love replicating the darkroom processes (dodging, burning, contrast curves) with software. That works best with Photoshop or Affinity Photo. I use Lightroom as catalog and the initial setting of light and contrast, but that is not mandatory - the built-in RAW converters in Affinity are able to achieve the same. 

I have a Canon Pro 10S that I use for both BW and Color. It uses pigment based inks (which make the print more durable) and has an additional grey ink. it is not the most recent model and ink is expensive, but I don't see the need for change. If it fails at some point in future, Keith Cooper's YouTube videos are a good source for finding a replacement. 

[jaapv]

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If the printer has dedicated black and grey cartridges you will avoid metamerism problems. So it is worth it to get one that has. 

[newtoleica]

++ for Keith Cooper on printers. north light images. 

[Henners]

M10R, my reason being that you'll still have the colour channels to help with B&W conversions. The M10R is a little more traditional over the M11 with how the shutter/metering works and feels a bit more like a classic Leica. 

[Andre1960]

Hi

i purchased a second hand Leica M10M which came with 3 original batteries. 
If you shoot a lot you will need maybe 2 on a day. The M10 eats batteries. I don’t use live view btw. 

this will be very different with an M11M where you will only need 1. 
output quality is going to be great for both cameras. 
I love my M10M. It blows any RGB camera out of the water. 👌

[Jeff S]

Welcome to the forum.

Browse/search the Digital Post Processing section of the forum to find many, many discussions on all relevant printing issues, including pros and cons of various print machines and manufacturers.

You’ll also find information about dedicated B&W ink sets, and printer conversions, using processes like Piezography from Jon Cone.  I find them unnecessary, however, with today’s modern printer/paper alternatives.

As for cameras, fine (or mediocre) results can be obtained using any of the Leica digital models, depending as always on the user.  I now use the M10 Monochrom and find no need or desire to switch to the M11 platform.  I also own the ‘sister’ M10-R for color work, but it gets infrequent use, and never comes with me when using the Monochrom, which can offer a better, dedicated and exclusive B&W experience, as when using B&W film. 
 

Jeff

 

 

Edited August 21, 2024 by Jeff S

[brickftl]

the main advantage (to me) of the M11M over the M10M is better image quality at high ISO (not to mention better battery and a few other upgrades). This article addresses the differences between M10M and M11M nicely. Read it and see how those differences suit your purposes. https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2023/05/leica-m11-monochrom-review-pure-bw-performance/. 

I have the M11M, my first mono, and I can't say enough great things about it, especially when I'm shooting night scenes or in darkened rooms. And the noise of a mono cam is so different than the often smeary ugly noise of color cam images. Below is an image I shot at ISO 10000 in a dark room illuminated only by TV. To me the noise is tight, even and looks like the grain I see in Tri-X prints.

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[david911]

Thanks everyone for the great info.

As silly as it sounds, one of the things I really, really like about the M11M vs M10M is the USB port for charging - just makes things simpler.

Also, I just learned about the M10-D. This has a lot of appeal for me because I am kind of on an anti-screen campaign, and also because it simplifies what you are doing in the field and more mirrors old school film. You take your shots, go home and develop, and see what you've got. Was so much fun...

[Jeff S]

I shoot digital as deliberately as I shot film, with no need for longer battery life, mid-shoot charging, etc. One battery serves me well for a day with the M10-based bodies, and charging can be done at night while I sleep using an external charger. ISO range is as broad as I’d ever need for my style of shooting, processing and printing.  Different strokes…

Jeff

Edited August 21, 2024 by Jeff S

[01af]

Am 21.8.2024 um 01:20 schrieb david911:

My goal is to make physical prints, not create digital content.

Ummm ... then why shoot digital? Wouldn't black-and-white film and a wet darkroom be more fun?

My 'M Monochrom' is a Leica M-A, loaded with Ilford FP4+ or HP5+. Still working on the wet darkroom part though ... for the time being, I scan my film and work from there.

[newtoleica]

12 minutes ago, 01af said:

Ummm ... then why shoot digital? Wouldn't black-and-white film and a wet darkroom be more fun?

My 'M Monochrom' is a Leica M-A, loaded with Ilford FP4+ or HP5+. Still working on the wet darkroom part though ... for the time being, I scan my film and work from there.

No, I totally get where the OP is coming from. If you have a busy work or family life, or both, finding the time for a day or half day peacefully working in the darkroom is impossible. Perhaps even you don’t like to slow pace and the chemicals. If the end result is the thing then film/darkroom is no longer necessary. Speaking as someone who gave up in digital a decade ago and came back to film and has now given it up (again). 

[Jeff S]

3 hours ago, 01af said:

Ummm ... then why shoot digital? Wouldn't black-and-white film and a wet darkroom be more fun?

 

He did darkroom work, didn’t like it much, and gave it up.

I shot film since 1974, built 4 darkrooms in 4 different houses after relocations, and always made my own prints.  After retirement, and another house move, I finally transitioned to digital, and continue to make my own prints.  Far more convenient and flexible than my darkrooms, and modern printers, inks and papers are remarkably capable.  Still  fun, and rewarding, for me.
 

Jeff

[david911]

yeah - did the darkroom thing. enjoyed making the prints, but cleanup after each session was a pain. 

Also, I am intrigued by the insanely high ISO of digital. I used to want a summilux for the extra stop - don't think I need that now.

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[charlesphoto99]

5 hours ago, 01af said:

Ummm ... then why shoot digital? Wouldn't black-and-white film and a wet darkroom be more fun?

My 'M Monochrom' is a Leica M-A, loaded with Ilford FP4+ or HP5+. Still working on the wet darkroom part though ... for the time being, I scan my film and work from there.

I shot thousands of rolls of film and was a master darkroom printer. Had to give it all up, in large part due to the chemical toxicity. Now I print my film archives digitally, to the same high degree as I made darkroom prints. For new stuff it's an M10-R or M10M. Everybody is on a different path - maybe try not to be so full of yourself moving forward. 

[Knightspirit]

I haven't tried a Monochrome, but I will say that if it were me - I would go with the regular M11 all the way. The BW images coming out if it are superb - and using today's technology via Lightroom and Photoshop - you get unlimited filters (ie all of the colors - red, green, yellow etc) right in the software. You will have a lot more control over the final image using a color file - as counterintuitive as that sounds.