Is M11 Freeze Problem Repairable?

[fotografr]

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The reason I'm posing this question is that there's a M11 up for sale on another forum. The seller is a reputable member with a great track record. He has listed his M11 which he says was "serviced by Leica to fix the freeze problem," and that it now works perfectly. Is it possible Leica have identified the issue and are just dealing with it one camera at a time as they come in for repair?

[frame-it]

49 minutes ago, fotografr said:

The reason I'm posing this question is that there's a M11 up for sale on another forum. The seller is a reputable member with a great track record. He has listed his M11 which he says was "serviced by Leica to fix the freeze problem," and that it now works perfectly. Is it possible Leica have identified the issue and are just dealing with it one camera at a time as they come in for repair?

maybe they changed the main circuit board? 😇

[elmars]

Firmware 2.1.1 fixes the biggest freeze problems. Leica is continuing to work on eliminating the remaining causes. In my view, there is therefore no longer any reason not to buy an M11.

Leica started a long time ago to give severely affected customers a new camera. I think there were two reasons for this: On the one hand it was a confidence building measure, on the other hand they didn't know the cause of the freezes and wanted to examine some cameras to see if it wasn't a hardware defect (for which there is no confirmation so far).

[jigesh]

I have read about Leica changing motherboard and another circuit board for some M11 owners who then reported no freezes. No personal experience but I remember reading it a couple of times online.

Edited July 21, 2024 by jigesh

[Malabito]

3 hours ago, elmars said:

Firmware 2.1.1 fixes the biggest freeze problems. Leica is continuing to work on eliminating the remaining causes. In my view, there is therefore no longer any reason not to buy an M11.

Leica started a long time ago to give severely affected customers a new camera. I think there were two reasons for this: On the one hand it was a confidence building measure, on the other hand they didn't know the cause of the freezes and wanted to examine some cameras to see if it wasn't a hardware defect (for which there is no confirmation so far).

I wouldn't say it fixes it, I would say it diminishes it.

With the previous firmware I rarely had any freezes, but every once in a while I got them, very rarely,  with the new firmware seems like it's been reduced, but I  still gotten a couple of freezes, even less often but still.

 

I Honestly don't think leica will ever be able to fix them entirely, it's been 2 years already.

Edited July 21, 2024 by Malabito

[lct]

2.0.2 was the perfect firmware for me. I had no freeze or whatever problem since fw 1.6.1. Now i got new issues since 2.1.1. Minor issues TBH but curiously enough i sometimes need to pop sd cards out to fix it. BTW 2 years to fix all freezes is rather short in Leica world. Took 3+ years for the M240.

[Jeff S]

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From reading various threads, it seems possible that user operating procedures might also relate to freezes. If so, there’s no guarantee that a camera that works fine for one individual will perform as well for another.  But that’s just an observation, not based on any known fact or personal experience.

Jeff

[LeicaR10]

Fotographr,   You asked a very good question.  I owned and used all three M11 variants for my business.  All had various issues like freezing, color shift, bricked one, and other issues.  Very frustrating to say the least, especially when on the job and you have to stop and reach for a back up.  Each time a firmware update emerged, either previous problems came back from the dead (Zombies come to mind) or new issues created.  I have been a 50+ year Leica user, with experience in most all M cameras, R, S and SL cameras etc.  The M11 issues became the last straw that caused me to admit the cameras were unreliable for my work and went back to M10 variants.  The strange thing, some photographers swear they have no issues or more issues than one cares to think about.  Mine were the latter with the former M10s being the last most reliable M cameras for me.  Perhaps the M12 will get back to basics (essentials) and become a highly reliable (out of the box) M rangefinder camera once again.  Until then, the M10s and SL2/SL2-S remain in my arsenal as superb work horses.  Frankly, I do not believe Leica will ever admit to fixing all the issues with the M11.  The $9K +  photographers spend for each new M11 is simply not worth the money for the frustration 2+ years on "fixing" a "Apple-like" rangefinder camera.  IMO, Leica must significantly step up their game for the next models, or head back to the 2000s financially.  r/ Mark

Edited July 22, 2024 by LeicaR10

[hdmesa]

13 hours ago, fotografr said:

... Is it possible Leica have identified the issue and are just dealing with it one camera at a time as they come in for repair?

Only certain units actually had identifiable hardware issues that once repaired fixed freezing issues. But given the flakey reputation of the M11, why would anyone trust a used one? If you buy a new one, your Leica dealer stands behind it for X number of days with an exchange if needed. Yes, new is more expensive, but how much is it worth to you to not have to wait six months or more if your used M11 needs a repair (and possibly have to pay for it out of pocket, possibly offsetting the used savings)?

Edited July 22, 2024 by hdmesa

[JNK100]

A lot of these issues are due to using unsuitable SD cards I understand.

[geotrupede]

I am enjoying the M11 every week, very much, and despite some freezes that occurred along the wat, it is typically fine and with no issues. And if there is a freeze, it is battery in.out and done. I use it, so provided it reboots, all fine with me.

My advice, if the level of investment and the current lack of perfection, or refinement, makes you anxious, then really avoid purchase, as you will pass your time reading this forum, scared, worried, and without the fun you could have with other things, regretting that huge lump sum gone. It will be an excruciating painful experience.

But if instead you are able to forget issues and focus on the fun of using the M11, then it will be a superb companion.  And if a freeze happens, it is just a moment of relax, reboot and restart shooting.

To put number in context, with the use and setting of my unit, freezes are less than one per a thousands. maybe even five to ten thousands.

G.

 

PS another story is the visoflex, which in my experience is not that practical, works 2 times and 3 does not, contacts are flimsy, etc. those 600 pounds can be used towards a nice lens.

[jakontil]

If it’s just a freeze it was okay, in the past, some wont be able to wake up again after the freezes that makes it a liability

mine was oke, bought early in 2022 when released, and like some others, felt that 2.0.2 was most robust, declined to ipgrade to newer firmware, having lost faith but sold too early to compensate for other 

now sticking with my m10r and after some time off the latest firmware, still not convinced to get back to M11 just yet

love the camera for its battery and usb c port convenience 

[charlesphoto99]

21 hours ago, geotrupede said:

 And if a freeze happens, it is just a moment of relax, reboot and restart shooting.

 

"Excuse me, hold up, could we rerun the first kiss over again? Awkward I know, but I missed it as I was relaxing and rebooting my camera..." 

[charlesphoto99]

23 hours ago, JNK100 said:

A lot of these issues are due to using unsuitable SD cards I understand.

I think that's what is known as a 'red herring.' Besides, shouldn't a $9k camera body be resilient to card issues, esp when a camera costing 1/20th of that is? 

[geotrupede]

2 hours ago, charlesphoto99 said:

"Excuse me, hold up, could we rerun the first kiss over again? Awkward I know, but I missed it as I was relaxing and rebooting my camera..." 

yeah you are totally right...

but to keep it fun, sounds like a good excuse for yet another kiss 😉

a very romantic camera...

 

I have had many more issues with flash systems, like, "sorry it is not ready", "sorry, was not connected", etc/ but I have survived the embarrassment with ice cold blood, which you need to press the required sequence of controls on the flash system of choice. to do in.out batter is nothing compared... but indeed it takes at least 5 seconds to reboot and all.

G>

 

[geotrupede]

and to iterate, it is up to the buyer, I am having a great time with the M11. if you are unsure and not convinced sell / do not buy / look elsewhere.

in the end a M240 is also a good pick, with battery that lasts, etc. so why not saving some buckes and go for the affordable tester option?

M10 is super cool, but batter is a little quick, perhaps you can have multiple batteries like with M9,  but I am used with M11 and do not miss charging all the time some..

also, files are great, resolution at 60MP is unbelievable...  I was quite skeptical and used 18MP for a while, once I switched... magic. I cannot go back. Unfortunately as the files are massive, and hard to process on a macbook from 2017...   but worth. 

[Derbyshire Man]

I can tame my m11m and m11p crashes to about 1 in 2-3,000 by setting up the camera. The firmware is getting better all the time and I have been able to make the lastest crash free for >1,000 shots despite trying hard to annoy it! 

I do think it will get there. 

[Derbyshire Man]

22 hours ago, geotrupede said:

and to iterate, it is up to the buyer, I am having a great time with the M11. if you are unsure and not convinced sell / do not buy / look elsewhere.

in the end a M240 is also a good pick, with battery that lasts, etc. so why not saving some buckes and go for the affordable tester option?

M10 is super cool, but batter is a little quick, perhaps you can have multiple batteries like with M9,  but I am used with M11 and do not miss charging all the time some..

also, files are great, resolution at 60MP is unbelievable...  I was quite skeptical and used 18MP for a while, once I switched... magic. I cannot go back. Unfortunately as the files are massive, and hard to process on a macbook from 2017...   but worth. 

One of the great things about 60MP is it allows easy avoidance of the rangefinder look. Often, for those doing shallow depth of field photos, the in focus point is dead centre in the image. Even when this is a poor composition, usually as the photographer is either worried about focus and recomposing or just couldn’t be bothered. 60MP allows much better post shot framing without any worries about running out of resolution. I still try to frame in camera but when that is going to be impossible I have a very workable plan B. 

[EdwardWestin]

I picked up a gently used M11 from B&H in June 2024. First thing I do when getting a new camera generally is check firmware. I saw there was an update 2.1.1 and updated. After which I began to use the camera. I had a few freezes here and there (using both Leica lenses and Voightlander). Mostly when trying to quickly take a picture when the camera had been in standby mode or taking a series of photos in a burst (but not fast or enough frames to fill the buffer). 

I decided to treat the situation like a computer.  I reinstalled the firmware resetting everything it asked (user profiles, number images etc). 

I then read on the forum someone who suggested after formatting your memory cards in your computer first (just like you would if it was a hard drive) and then formatting it right after within the camera. 

Since doing this - I have not experienced any freezing requiring me to remove the battery.  I am using the Lexar  x2000 v60 cards and also have an Angelbird V90 card - but no issues. 

So to recap -

Reinstall latest firmware

Use a V60 or V90 rated SD card - format first in your computer in an XFAT or MS-DOS format.  (Do this for ALL memory cards you intend to use) 

REFORMAT card now internally with your M11

 

It might sound silly, but when you format a card in camera it writes certain info to the card. I think by formatting in the computer and then formatting within the M11, it "tricks" the M11 into something in regards to format, file / folder structure or something that when simply trying to format in camera it doesn't do completely. 

So I thought it was silly but it worked for one person, so I had nothing to loose and so far going strong its worked for me. I use my M11 several times a week since taking thousands of street photos walking around NYC on the weekends (even in this hot weather) and yep, no issues since. Whereas the first few weeks before doing this BUT using firmware 2.1.1 I was experiencing freezing and thought I might return the camera due to the forums going crazy about mixed with the cost of thing. 

 

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[lexffm]

vor einer Stunde schrieb EdwardWestin:

REFORMAT card now internally with your M11

 

But keep in mind that formatting in the camera is always only a quick format. So the solution is already there. If you make low level format for the cards and always delete the last pictures in the camera when reinserting the card, problems that come from the card seem to be gone. But unfortunately these are not all the problems. For example, the message I often have that the battery is empty, although it works again after taking it out and putting it back in.