Damn Ken Rockwell :-) (m240 vs Sony A7)

[Zhenya]

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Hello friends,

I'm now in my path to return to camera photography after about 10 years of storing my cameras on the shelf getting dust.

So as I have a lot of vintage manual lenses (mostly MD, Exakta and non-Leica LTM) and don't like AF ones, my goal is to find a full frame  digital body for these lens. I have a Sony A7 bought in 2013 but rarely use it because I was not very satisfied with the quality of pictures I've got. E.g. my 58/1.4 Rokkor gave better result on film than on a digital.

At first I wanted to change my A7 for Nikon Zf, which really looks like film camera. But after some thoughts and viewing pictures on Flickr my budget lets me spend a $1000 more for a M240 as a digital version of my beloved M2 to use her for LTM + occasionally with SLR lenses with an EVF-2 (BTW, is it so bad nowadays?).

But I also want to take a look what others think on my A7 too and I found this on Ken Rockwell's review of A7 on his website:

"First I'm impressed because it is very, very well made, almost completely made of metal with engraved markings — even better made than the $7,500 LEICA M typ 240 with its plastic made-in-China EVF2 electronic finder!...

...I suspect the A7 may be a much better camera than the M typ. 240, and will also actually be available for sale and for less than one-quarter the price."

Damn! How could that be? I can sell my A7 for $400 and buy m240 for $2,6k

But... in camera comparison Ken showed the prime lenses can look awful on A7: m240 vs A7 so I can guess he is able to make a controversial statements 🙂

Anyway, I think now is it good to spend a bunch of money on 12 years old m240 to use it with non-Leica lens or spend a $1k less on new mirrorless?

P.S. Pictures in this topic are amazing: The view though older glass

 

 

 

[pegelli]

I have both the Sony A7ii and A7Rii as well as an M240 (and M246M) and had the A7.

For me the M240 (or M246M) only make sense with rangefinder coupled lenses, and using the camera as originally intended for M-cameras. The EVF-2 is a finicky crutch that I only use if I absolutely have to. Even sticking on a 15 or 21 mm viewfinder for my short lenses beats using the EVF for the way I use my M's

Re. the "quality" of the files the A7 and A7ii is very comparable to the M240 and I find focussing with the zoomed in enlarged view is easier vs with a split image rangefinder (less misfocussed discards).

Don't get me wrong, I really like using my M240 and M246 but for the touch and feel of the body and the viewfinder/rangefinder "experience". Adapting non rangefinder coupled lenses is not the forte of these M-cameras and I think the Nikon/Canon/Sony offerings are better suited for that.

And don't listen to Ken Rockwell on his image comparison between the A7 and the M240, he's only comparing in camera jpg's, shoot raw and use a proper camera profile and they can all be edited fully to your liking and be made identical (if that's what you want).

 

Edited July 18, 2024 by pegelli

[romanus53]

As I use both A7II and M10 it's more user-experience than picture quality to me. I like rangefinder and considering all the buttons less is more. Picture quality is good enough for normal use. But both are old electronic devices it bought second hand now.

[pgk]

43 minutes ago, Zhenya said:

Anyway, I think now is it good to spend a bunch of money on 12 years old m240 to use it with non-Leica lens or spend a $1k less on new mirrorless?

$1k on mirrorless, but that said, your Sony A7 is a highly capable camera so why not just buy an M adapter for it (I use the Metabones version) and try an M lens on it? Leica M lenses mostly work very well indeed on Sony A7 series cameras (some very wide lenses excluded) and is a far cheaper option, depending on the lens of course.

[Zhenya]

16 minutes ago, pgk said:

$1k on mirrorless, but that said, your Sony A7 is a highly capable camera so why not just buy an M adapter for it (I use the Metabones version) and try an M lens on it? Leica M lenses mostly work very well indeed on Sony A7 series cameras (some very wide lenses excluded) and is a far cheaper option, depending on the lens of course.

I don't have M lenses yet. I think I'll buy one in future - a 50/1.5 and it will be my only lens for m240, maybe two: +35mm also.

I don't think that you need a huge amount of lenses for rangefinder camera.

[Zhenya]

38 minutes ago, romanus53 said:

As I use both A7II and M10 it's more user-experience than picture quality to me. I like rangefinder and considering all the buttons less is more.

My thoughts are the same now 🙂

[romanus53]

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Just a few more points: the EVF of the M10 I'm using right now is better and faster than the old one for M240 but I use it only for macro or long lenses or non-rangefinder-lenses. And the A7II has 3-axis picture stabilization for all lenses, nice if needed. I stepped up from M240 to M10 because I feared the electronics getting old, had used an M8 twice over the years just for fun but would not buy again in fear of drop-out.

[pegelli]

Indeed the M10 and its corrosponding EVF are better vs. the M240 and corrosponding EVF, but the M10 set is also ~50% more expensive vs the M240 set (comparing prices on MPB).

[spydrxx]

From a financial standpoint it is a no brainer...the Sony wins! But if you are fixated on a rangefinder, spend the money and enjoy the ride, knowing it becomes infectious and eventually you, like many of us, will develop GAS. These days I only occasionally use my Leica bodies for the simple reason that if using B&W film I have to drag out the darkroom stuff, or if color, send it to a lab as there are no mini labs in my area. I most often use my M and LTM lenses on my Sony A7rii, and find it both easy to use and I'd put picture quality easily up against and of the Leica offerings. I encourage you to think through both whether you will get better use out of a Leica body and whether breaking the budget is worth it. Best of luck in your choice and photographic endeavors. Let us know what you decided.

[davidmknoble]

First, I would say Leica cameras, including the M240, are built incredibly well. A plastic add-on does not make the camera itself inferior.  Second, the comparison between an autofocus camera with electronic autofocus lenses and one that is not autofocus is itself an oxi-moron, or at the very least ridiculous.

The comparison between the SL system and the Sony is more reasonable.

The M series has at its core lenses that work on cameras from the 1950’s forward.  I have long enjoyed taking 2 camera bodies, one digital and one film, with a few lenses that work between them. The film bodies I bring are from 1960-1970 and I bring lenses from 1968 and 2018.I don’t know of another camera company that has made this possible.  

The M lenses are made to last for generations.  As much as I love the S and SL system, eventually all the autofocus, electronic cameras will no longer be repairable.

Just my opinions of course..

[lct]

I have no experience with MD or Exacta lenses but i used my Kolari mod A7s and A7r2 most of the time with M-mount and LTM lenses actually. Some of them tend to exhibit soft and/or smeared corners without the Kolari mod though, like Heliar 15/4.5 v2, Super-Angulon 21/3.4, Super-Elmar 21/3.4 asph, Biogon 21/4.5, Skopar 21/4 or Elmarit 28/2.8 asph v1. Those Heliar, Super-Angulon, Biogon and Skopar lenses can exhibit red edges on the M240, too, so i would avoid generalizations.

[lct]

Forgot to say, beware that batteries for the M240 are not available any more and there are no replacement copies on the market for now. Better make sure that you can get one or two of them with the M240 then if you plan to buy it.

[justj]

Both the A7 and M240 are highly capable cameras; if one fails to take a good photo with either, it is most likely due to user error.

[jaeger]

A7 has good auto focus, M has fun and challenging rangefinder.  Which one do you want?

[newtoleica]

The Sony is a good platform for legacy MF SLR lenses. I used an A7R alongside my Olympus OM film cameras with Zuiko lenses for some years. The rangefinder lenses less so as the corners smear (the Sony has a thick sensor stack that doesn’t like angled light). To get good results you need a GOOD adaptor (Novoflex or Urth) not some cheap Chinese thing. The cheap adaptors don’t manage infinity focus, over or under shooting, tend to wobble and can de-centre. Other good platforms are the Nikon Z series and the newer A7Rii or iii - no advantage in later models as the improvements are mainly in AF.

the M240 is a horrible platform for non-RF lenses for the reasons stated by others. M10 is passable but unless you really want to mainly start a Leica M collection it’s not cost-effective. 

[pippy]

18 hours ago, lct said:

Forgot to say, beware that batteries for the M240 are not available any more...

Eh? What makes you think that is the case? This is from the official Leica website;

https://leica-camera.com/en-GB/photography/accessories/batteries/rechargable-battery-m-bp-scl-2#

...and this is on the Red Dot (London) site;

https://www.reddotcameras.co.uk/other-m-items/4714-leica-rechargeable-for-m-battery-bp-scl2-type-240.html

As I don't have a spare battery for my own camera you had me worried for a second!

Not only that but it is still possible to buy batteries for the M8 / M9 cameras;

https://leica-camera.com/en-GB/photography/accessories/batteries/rechargable-battery-for-m8m9m-em-monochrom#

Philip.

 

Edited July 19, 2024 by pippy

[250swb]

23 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

Get the Nikon Zf.
Not only it looks great, you will be able to use

- Any Sony FE/E lens seamlessly with adapter

- M lenses as good as it gets this side of M body

- Every other vintage MF adapted lens you own with incredible AI focus assist UNMATCHED BY ANY OTHER CAMERA.

....and the native Z lenses are very, very good. 

For the OP I don't think the M240 was Leica's finest effort but it's not a bad camera and let down in its versatility by a poor EVF (a rebranded Olympus/Epson EVF that was already out of date). It isn't the Swiss Army knife do-it-all that a Nikon Zf is, but online gallery's or posted photo's are not the place to look in comparing image quality, trust the professional reviewers and yes, even Ken Rockwell.

Edited July 19, 2024 by 250swb

[lct]

1 hour ago, pippy said:

What makes you think that is the case?

They are listed as discontinued on B&H acccording to this thread but i will try in UK thank you for you links 🙂

[lct]

1 hour ago, Al Brown said:

Get the Nikon Zf.
Not only it looks great, you will be able to use [...]

- M lenses as good as it gets this side of M body

Including symmetrical WAs? Just curious as i don't know the sensor stack's thickness of the Nikon.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[lct]

11 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

"M lenses as good as it gets this side of M body" simply just means not as good as on a Leica body, comparable to Canon RF, Sony,....

My Kolari mod Sony can compete easily with my M240 on any lens so the Nikon is just another camera with thick sensor stack if i understand well, right?