Should I buy a film M, and which one? Questions galore

[AuralAurora]

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Hello. 

I have a Leica M10 and was recently hit by a wave of nostalgia which really made me want to get back to shooting film. I had some experience back in my teenage years but now that I have several M mount lenses, I've been thinking about a film Leica. I have several assorted questions, hopefully they do not sound dumb.

 

1. I am not in a hurry, and I am looking to buy used. I can get an old (not a reissue) M6 now, or an MP a couple of months later. Should I wait? (I will probably be choosing between these two models since all I see on classified ads in my country are M6, MP and M3/4 and I would like a built in light meter. I am considering an MP since I would like a forever camera, and I prefer the look, but I am okay with either).
2. If I should wait and get an MP, how far back regarding serial numbers/production years should I go (like, is a camera that was made five years basically the same as one made a year or two ago)? Are there any variations that I should be looking for?
3. Anything in particular I should be looking for when buying, if the camera does not look beat up?
4. Here comes the silly question. Will it be suitable for an occasional classic 90s point and shoot with a flash photo, like the ones from the family photo albums? I have a small external Fujifilm flash, I am good with focusing with the rangefinder and I carry my current camera everyday with me. Just asking if it can be used for that look, or if I should just buy a small cheap point and shoot for this. I'd rather not, if possible.

 

Thanks in advance.

[jaapv]

My favourite is the M6 classic, provided you get one with good electronics. 

[Ko.Fe.]

Why not. Especially if you in the mood to keep it.

Build-in meter is not really necessary for film.  I have M4-2 and used it everywhere, everyday for several years until 2022. Never had an exposure issues. I used mobile phone to learn exposure combinations and after it nothing really new. Just same to repeat. Also 400 ISO films like Kentmere or HP5+ are very forgiving. C41 like Kodak Gold as well. 

I used flash once in a while. I was just picking used ones for film. ISO, aperture and distance selectors on those. I liked M4-2 because it has hotshoe. PC cables are not elegant and not reliable. Vivitar 2800 Automatic is good example.

[hansvons]

2 hours ago, AuralAurora said:

I am considering an MP since I would like a forever camera, and I prefer the look, but I am okay with either).

Good choice. I own and shoot a classic M6 and M4P regularly, but I see the wish to get a more recent camera. 

 

2 hours ago, AuralAurora said:

Will it be suitable for an occasional classic 90s point and shoot with a flash photo, ...

Yes.

 

[LocalHero1953]

I have a M4 and a new black paint MP, which I consider give me the best of all prejudices: metered/unmetered, silver/black paint, rigid/articulated winder, knob/spinner rewind, new/old, brass/steel gears…..,

Edited July 11, 2024 by LocalHero1953

[earleygallery]

2 hours ago, AuralAurora said:

Hello. 

I have a Leica M10 and was recently hit by a wave of nostalgia which really made me want to get back to shooting film. I had some experience back in my teenage years but now that I have several M mount lenses, I've been thinking about a film Leica. I have several assorted questions, hopefully they do not sound dumb.

 

1. I am not in a hurry, and I am looking to buy used. I can get an old (not a reissue) M6 now, or an MP a couple of months later. Should I wait? (I will probably be choosing between these two models since all I see on classified ads in my country are M6, MP and M3/4 and I would like a built in light meter. I am considering an MP since I would like a forever camera, and I prefer the look, but I am okay with either).
2. If I should wait and get an MP, how far back regarding serial numbers/production years should I go (like, is a camera that was made five years basically the same as one made a year or two ago)? Are there any variations that I should be looking for?
3. Anything in particular I should be looking for when buying, if the camera does not look beat up?
4. Here comes the silly question. Will it be suitable for an occasional classic 90s point and shoot with a flash photo, like the ones from the family photo albums? I have a small external Fujifilm flash, I am good with focusing with the rangefinder and I carry my current camera everyday with me. Just asking if it can be used for that look, or if I should just buy a small cheap point and shoot for this. I'd rather not, if possible.

 

Thanks in advance.

Welcome.

My thoughts….

1. M6 and MP essentially the same so just go with what you prefer/what you can find.

2. Just buy the best one you can find for your budget. Avoid eBay and buy from a dealer who provides a warranty, ideally in person so you can check the camera yourself first.

3. As above. Check the rangefinder is clear and accurate. Ideally shoot a test film if there’s a 1 hour lab nearby.

4. Of course. Buy a small basic flash to make it look similar to the typical built in flash on a P&S compact. 

[Anbaric]

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2 hours ago, AuralAurora said:

1. I am not in a hurry, and I am looking to buy used. I can get an old (not a reissue) M6 now, or an MP a couple of months later. Should I wait? (I will probably be choosing between these two models since all I see on classified ads in my country are M6, MP and M3/4 and I would like a built in light meter. I am considering an MP since I would like a forever camera, and I prefer the look, but I am okay with either).
2. If I should wait and get an MP, how far back regarding serial numbers/production years should I go (like, is a camera that was made five years basically the same as one made a year or two ago)? Are there any variations that I should be looking for?
3. Anything in particular I should be looking for when buying, if the camera does not look beat up?
4. Here comes the silly question. Will it be suitable for an occasional classic 90s point and shoot with a flash photo, like the ones from the family photo albums? I have a small external Fujifilm flash, I am good with focusing with the rangefinder and I carry my current camera everyday with me. Just asking if it can be used for that look, or if I should just buy a small cheap point and shoot for this. I'd rather not, if possible.

The M6 and the MP are both fine choices. If you're not in a hurry, wait for the one you prefer. There are a few differences to consider. The M6 has the 'modern' style wind-on lever and rewind crank introduced with the M4. The MP has the retro (M2/M3-style) wind-on and a rewind knob that is slower to use than a crank. The MP has a rangefinder with an added condenser lens that makes the patch less likely to flare and 'white out' in certain lighting conditions. It also has a current meter that can be fully serviced (the main circuit board for the old M6 is no longer available, though it's reportedly possible Leica will have a solution to this one day). Some M6s suffer from zinc corrosion, so choose one where the plating shows no signs of 'bubbling' if you go for this model. I wouldn't worry about MP serial numbers. Carefully examine a test roll to make sure the pressure plate doesn't scratch film, which has been a bit of a problem with some cameras in recent years. Make sure the rangefinder is accurate, the mechanism runs smoothly, and there are no holes in the shutter curtain or fungus in the optics. You can use any camera to take 'P&S' style photos. Your flash will need either a fully manual mode, or an auto mode that uses a sensor in the flash itself and does not depend on your Fuji's TTL metering. On the other hand, you can get a genuine P&S for very little money if you choose one that hasn't been hyped by the hipsters and sold at inflated prices and these cameras can be fun to shoot.

[Mute-on]

I agree with the convenience of a built in meter. I have an early MP which I happily use along side one of my other non-metered M bodies (M4 and M2).

You will really need to try both M6 and MP to decide which style of wind-on lever and rewind crank you prefer. Personally I prefer the MP style rigid wind-on lever, precisely because it offers a more precise ‘rigid’ feeling. In comparison I find the articulated wind-on lever feels ‘loose’. This is an entirely personal preference matter. One is not better than the other.

Further to the comments above, in your shoes I would search for the nicest black paint MP I could find in my price range. Be aware that superficial scratches are usually ok but obvious dents will indicate the camera has been knocked or dropped, which can cause issues with rangefinder alignment, rangefinder prism separation, and lens flange alignment, amongst others. I would avoid a camera with obvious dents or dings for this reason. Other than that, whatever cosmetic condition you find appealing is perfectly fine.

Functionally, in addition to items mentioned above, you would expect the light meter to be accurate (test against a known good external meter), the iso dial to function properly (be firm but movable, and change light meter readings as expected at a given iso), smooth wind-on with film inserted (take a test roll or two with you), smooth rewind, solid and properly latching baseplate, firm and unworn strap lugs.

Good luck!

[FrozenInTime]

Consider than an original M6 will have seen around thirty years of use; that is sufficient time for moving electrical switch contacts and resistive traces on the ISO dial to wear, flex circuits and plastic parts such as the film frame counter to become brittle.

I sold both my original M6s even though they were trouble free.

The M-A and MP that replaced them do have better optics and the mechanics feel smoother - fit for another thirty years use.

[TomB_tx]

I agree with the above: the M6 & MP are equivalent cameras - just go with the one you prefer. I bought my M6 in 1985 (after using an M4 since 1968) and eventually it did need the meter circuit replaced - but only because I left it for a long time with batteries in it that corroded and damaged the circuit board (among other things). That camera still looks new and works like new. I did have the finder upgraded to the MP style a few years ago, but was fine with it for decades before until my cataracts affected me. Mine has no trace of zinc problems, and the same with a few Leica R models I have that also used zinc covers with black chrome.

Id I were in the market I'd also consider the new M6 that's now in production.

[johnwolf]

I suggest you be open to meterless Ms. I find a small handheld incident meter is faster and more accurate, and it’s nice determining exposure without raising the camera to the eye. I think you’d be surprised how little you actually need to meter in a typical outing.

The cameras cost less, of course, and are more widely available. Some unique and wonderful framelines options, too, like the M2 and M3. 

I had always used an M6 and last year got an M2. I much prefer the latter and, not sure why, but I feel more engaged with the film M experience. 

Edited July 12, 2024 by johnwolf

[Mikep996]

M6 - either new or used.  My first batch original M6 still works perfectly but, of course whether another old one will is an unknown.  I am not a fan of separate light meters unless a camera you really enjoy using does not have one.  IOW, if I was buying a film Leica, I wouldn't consider one without a light meter nowadays.  I had an M2 many years ago.  It was my first Leica and it was the reason I bought an M6!

[Borna]

13 hours ago, jaapv said:

My favourite is the M6 classic, provided you get one with good electronics. 

Mine too, but hey how does one know they will get one with good electronics. Do we base this towards the external look of the camera or by testing the light meter in different light? I mean, it is very hard to know if it has "good electronics" or not? 

[EddieJ]

8 minutes ago, Borna said:

Mine too, but hey how does one know they will get one with good electronics. Do we base this towards the external look of the camera or by testing the light meter in different light? I mean, it is very hard to know if it has "good electronics" or not? 

Caveat emptor. 

I bought my 1985 well used M6 in Melbourne, Australia at Camera Exchange with a 3 month warranty. Albeit I know John & crew very well. I’ve had some 5+ years of joy. No issues other than yearly battery replacement - always replace after 1 year regardless. 

Here in Rome, Italy looking at Leica Store online an M6 comes with 12 months warranty as well as RCE Foto anywhere from 6, 12 and in some cases reissue 2+ years. 
 

As others have mentioned on this forum. Always try to buy in person, so you can test the camera out, put a roll or film through and process at a 1 hour lab. If the seller, store is genuine they’ll have no qualms with that. 

[jakontil]

I’d prefer an MP over the classic M6, just prefer the brass feel over zinc and brassing over zinc bubbles if there’s any

dont rule out a camera without meter too, as a matter of facts, i prefer it over the built in meter, like @johnwolf said, an incident meter is more pleasure to use, and i cant say it is more accurate but it’s actually reading the light as it exactly falls without averaging the surrounding areas, not deceived by the bright white sands for instance, or clear sunny sky 

 

[jaapv]

On 7/12/2024 at 3:58 AM, mark_s90 said:

Built in light meters do not work the same way as a hand held.. 

 

SPOT meter in a camera is pretty close, but my one camera with an averaging meter oh boy not at all INSIDE the house.. Camera will say f/4 @1/8, the sekonic says f/4 @ 1/4

Film Ms beginning with the M6 measure off a spot on  the first curtain and off a similar area of the film. That is not averageing. 

[costa43]

I like the m5. I get that its looks are not everybody’s cup of tea but It has the best user experience imo of all the m film cameras that I’ve tried. The metering is really accurate and you can adjust the shutter dial very easily whilst looking through the viewfinder. You also get the shutter speed in the viewfinder so you know when you are about to go into shake territory. It’s a really good user option.  

I also like the black paint mp for aesthetic reasons and it’s my next purchase. 

[BWColor]

If you shoot mostly 50mm, I would look for an M3.  Electronics on an M3 never go out, but shutter and viewfinder can age.

My used M6TTL with .58 viewfinder works great with my 35mm lenses.

Lots of great choices, but make sure that you get the desired viewfinder.

[F456]

On 7/12/2024 at 2:47 AM, johnwolf said:

I suggest you be open to meterless Ms. I find a small handheld incident meter is faster and more accurate, and it’s nice determining exposure without raising the camera to the eye. I think you’d be surprised how little you actually need to meter in a typical outing.

The cameras cost less, of course, and are more widely available. Some unique and wonderful framelines options, too, like the M2 and M3. 

I had always used an M6 and last year got an M2. I much prefer the latter and, not sure why, but I feel more engaged with the film M experience. 

 

On 7/11/2024 at 8:16 PM, AuralAurora said:

I am not in a hurry, and I am looking to buy used. I can get an old (not a reissue) M6 now, or an MP a couple of months later. Should I wait? (I will probably be choosing between these two models since all I see on classified ads in my country are M6, MP and M3/4 and I would like a built in light meter. I am considering an MP since I would like a forever camera, and I prefer the look, but I am okay with either).

 

Here comes the silly question. Will it be suitable for an occasional classic 90s point and shoot with a flash photo, like the ones from the family photo albums? I have a small external Fujifilm flash, I am good with focusing with the rangefinder and I carry my current camera everyday with me. Just asking if it can be used for that look, or if I should just buy a small cheap point and shoot for this. I'd rather not, if possible.

 

Thanks in advance.

I see that you would like a built-in meter and I'd like to comment on that as it has usually been my feeling as well.

However, three considerations have tipped me towards going meterless recently: one being financial considerations, the second from seeing results using an incident handheld meter once again after a few years, and the third to do with black paint characteristics in the case primarily of the 21st century MP. I do still have a metered camera and haven't decided yet whether to part with it.  

First, financial. From talking to the excellent repairers and all-round service  team at Cameraworks-UK (not the same as Cameraworks, by the way) I am aware that apart from the modern metered film bodies (MP and possibly the recently released modern M6) the older M6s in both classic and TTL models are to all intents and purposes irreparable as far as the meters are concerned. M6TTL and M7 models are starting not even to be accepted for general service.  So I now value my admittedly quite expensive black chrome M4 (1974 and predating the metered Ms) more highly as I feel that once a metered camera develops a u/s meter it will drop in value. On the other hand, the M3, M2 and M4 are valued by some as the last of the old school manufacturing process  and I absolutely love the M4; I feel that as long as there are good repairers and servicers for cameras with no electronics at all, i.e. not even for metering, these cameras will keep working as designed and keep their value.

Second, results.  Thinking of the point above about the meter failure ticking timebomb I decided recently to do a little project with my M4 and two lenses, Canadian Midland Ontario Summicrons 35mm and 90mm from the 1980s, in order to see how happy I would be if it came to just shooting meterless Leicas.  The pictures involved some fairly close up shots with people, some static features at a public ground and some detailed views of buildings, viewing stands etc across a pitch. Conditions were good for b&w photography with some cloud but also sun coming through and a chance for some deep blacks and whites as well as the grey tones. No camera meter in the M4, so I used my handheld meter, a Sekonic L308 — a dinky compact meter that I use for incident light reading. I was prepared for some failures! Lucky conditions or greater care in view of the challenge: whichever or a combination of both, I couldn't have been more satisfied with the results on Ilford FP4 Plus, developed and scanned by a good lab and then given only minor straightening and cropping and just a curve adjustment in ACR to adjust the tones and contrast. Some conditions are easier than others but I feel at last I have overcome anxieties over using a separate meter. This is not to say it's always better, especially in fast moving light and cloud etc, but personally I have found it can lead to more accurate exposures (in my hands at least and not all of the time). I should add that working with the meter really didn't slow me down significantly on this occasion.

Third, the MP and black paint. I know the following view is not shared by everyone. Personally I don't go with Leica's concept and advertising persuasion that wear on a black paint model is a desirable thing. To me unless it's seriously worn and battered after years of warry service it's just an irritating feature that lowers value when it comes to resale and something to encourage treating the camera with kid gloves to avoid all the fingerprints, scratches and accelerated ageing. Also as most lenses are in black chrome it seems all a bit of a mismatch. While the MP is new it does look great however!  Silver may be harder wearing?

Your fourth point about flash: far from silly as a Leica with flash can be handy and apart from shutter speed drawback for fill-in use has the advantage of not blacking out the viewfinder at the moment of exposure (unlike SLRs). You have a small Fujifilm flash. Do check whether it offers a non-TTL auto mode as modern flashes are increasingly or perhaps all dispensing with that feature in favour of TTL flash and manual only. With an M4-P, M6 classic or MP you won't get TTL and may have to rely on guide numbers etc for fully manual flash as the only option. With non-TTL auto mode you can change the aperture and the computerized sensor on the flash unit itself will do the rest, assuming you choose an aperture suitable enough for the distance. You might be able to find a second hand Leica SF20 or similar or an old Vivitar 283, for instance.

This post is on the long side but I hope it helps you in your decision, one way or the other, whether or not you agree with the contents.  Good luck and let us know how things turn out!

I hope to post some of the pictures I took later today after seeing the instructions for posting them on the forum.

Edited July 15, 2024 by F456

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[jaapv]

19 hours ago, costa43 said:

I like the m5. I get that its looks are not everybody’s cup of tea but It has the best user experience imo of all the m film cameras that I’ve tried. The metering is really accurate and you can adjust the shutter dial very easily whilst looking through the viewfinder. You also get the shutter speed in the viewfinder so you know when you are about to go into shake territory. It’s a really good user option.  

I also like the black paint mp for aesthetic reasons and it’s my next purchase. 

M5 cameras are hard and expensive to repair. If anything breaks you are in trouble.