Getting the colour right on the M11 {split-off thread}

[jonoslack]

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1 hour ago, hdmesa said:

I have a suspicion that your M11's sensor hardware is just better matched to Leica's default color reference values. Leica doesn't custom calibrate each camera like Hasselblad, so some M11 units may deviate far enough from the assumed color response to need an adjustment.

I think it's pretty cool that Leica was willing and able to do that for a customer.

Well, that is certainly possible. I wish that I knew more about this. I’ll see if I can do some research. 

[elmars]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb hdmesa:

Leica doesn't custom calibrate each camera like Hasselblad

I'm not sure about that. In the beta phase of the M11, some cameras were recalled because they had to be recalibrated due to changes in the white balance firmware.

Otherwise, you can always ask Leica if you want things changed (just don't expect it to be done quickly). For example, they once offered to recalibrate the light meter on my M10 because the pictures were too bright.

[jaapv]

14 hours ago, lldd said:

In this video the review (who owns both M11 and SL3) shot two photos side by side on each camera (at right around the 12:45 mark).  If both of these cameras share the same sensor, it seems clear that, let's just say, one of them is not like the other.   It would appear that the imaging chain between the two is not identical (and that may be the norm for two Leicas with the same sensor - I have no idea).  That said, the M11 clearly shows magenta, and it would be frustrating to use both cameras at an event and then have to color match them.

 

Colour matching is simply done by using an Xrite Passport. 

[hdmesa]

7 hours ago, elmars said:

I'm not sure about that. In the beta phase of the M11, some cameras were recalled because they had to be recalibrated due to changes in the white balance firmware.

Otherwise, you can always ask Leica if you want things changed (just don't expect it to be done quickly). For example, they once offered to recalibrate the light meter on my M10 because the pictures were too bright.

It would be interesting to know for sure. I would assume that during the beta phase the calibration is being worked out, but the production phase is less unit-specific. If they do individually color calibrate each body, they should tout that in their marketing. 

[hdmesa]

8 hours ago, jonoslack said:

Well, that is certainly possible. I wish that I knew more about this. I’ll see if I can do some research. 

Thanks, Jono. Could be I'm wrong as @elmars suggested – would be great to know for sure.

[don daniel]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb hdmesa:

I think it's pretty cool that Leica was willing and able to do that for a customer.

I'm skeptical. I'd like to first see confirmation from the user that Leica has indeed calibrated a single camera to make the color balance less magenta-heavy. Regarding the review linked above, comparing the M11 and SL3 from 12:45 onwards, I have to say: He really shows the difference in color balance in that one image, which I also recognize between my M11 and cameras from other brands or other Leica models. However, I don't understand some of the things he does with his images. Sometimes, there's a filter applied from left to right that turns the sky into ugly cyan.

[R4p70r]

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14 hours ago, hdmesa said:

^ Sounds more like what Hasselblad does with their hardware-specific color calibration. Leica may be able to do this manually by request.

That would be awesome if Leica offers something similar like Hasselblad Natural Colour Solution (HNCS) for the M11, all the other current gen and future cameras. 
Every time I see those Hasselblad photos I am always in awe how beautiful those colours are.

[sebas_]

I will update as soon as I get the camera back. Yes, I am very happy that Leica has addressed the issue I am having with the camera. It would be possible that there are some M11 closer to Leica's profile and some are further off (like mine). Maybe it could also be a different sensor batch or something else. 

Something similar to HNCS would be great on Leica as well. I think it would be fabulous to have a whole system of cameras (all models) to have the same color response. So they can be used in a mixed setup and I get the colour Leica has intended. Another way would be to develop Leica Looks to be able to use in DNG as well, so we could set a default, which the user likes best. 

Edited June 5, 2024 by sebas_

[hdmesa]

6 hours ago, R4p70r said:

That would be awesome if Leica offers something similar like Hasselblad Natural Colour Solution (HNCS) for the M11, all the other current gen and future cameras. 
Every time I see those Hasselblad photos I am always in awe how beautiful those colours are.

I think the Hasselblad approach also requires over a gigabyte of calibration maps to be stored in camera and read at every boot-up. I'm not sure the Leica M user would be ok with any further startup delays. Perhaps Leica could read such maps using a dedicated processor chip. 

[jaapv]

That is why the computer-driven solution is more practical. 

[sebas_]

I have got my Leica M11-P back from Wetzlar. In regards to WB I am very pleased. The strong magenta cast is gone from the Daylite WB ( as well as Auto WB in Daylite), but it does not change the overall M11 look. My guess is that there are some M11's out there, which deviate from the intended value. Which would also explain, why only some are complaining about the issue. 

Sadly I got still "File unreadable" and a new bug, which I haven't had before. I was testing a Summilux 50 and was changing the capture from f8 to f1.4. Camera on Auto ISO and Auto Shutter speed. Camera does not adjust the shutter speed, stuck with the f8 reading and all images with f1.4 are overexposed. Have adjusted the aperture several times back and forth, no change on the shutter speed -  happened twice within ca. 20 minutes, no clue what it caused. Seems Leica has made a deal with the wrong demon, when materialising the M11. 

Below is Auto WB with a SEM 21. Quite happy how the WB is handling now. 

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Edited June 16, 2024 by sebas_

[mauipilot]

Has anyone figured out the hack or trick to getting the default colors correct and capture one I seem to be getting better skin tones and Lightroom and I’m considering canceling my Capital One subscription

[Kiwimac]

I long ago concluded that simply setting my camera to Daylight in Kelvin (I use 5700) to replicate the daylight balanced film I grew up shooting was the best approach to WB.

 

I do change it if the location is exclusively lit by a particular light source but other than that I leave it alone and tweak it in post if needed.

 

I have not been hugely impressed with the colour from the M11 series, I have to say.

[Photoworks]

9 hours ago, mauipilot said:

canceling my Capital One subscription

I would go for AMEX.

 

[Photoworks]

4 hours ago, Kiwimac said:

I long ago concluded that simply setting my camera to Daylight in Kelvin (I use 5700) to replicate the daylight balanced film I grew up shooting was the best approach to WB.

and how do you fix Magenta/ Green Cast in K?

[Kiwimac]

7 hours ago, Photoworks said:

and how do you fix Magenta/ Green Cast in K?

I’ve not really noticed one. 
 

The colour overall I don’t think is the most appealing to my eye most of the time. It’s a bit inconsistent - sometimes I’m amazed but usually not. 
 

It’s a big reason I’m looking into the Hasselblad X2D. The colour I see in images taken with that speaks to my eye much more. 
 

Although the M11 is a camera with a more modern feature set, I reluctantly must admit that the M10-R had much more pleasing colour. In my opinion. 

Edited August 24, 2024 by Kiwimac

[mauipilot]

Maybe I can get some help from the experts here.

This is the situation.  I am NOT liking the images coming from my M11-P compared my others.  I placed the 35mm Summilux on my M-11P, SL 601, SL-3.

I then did the following in Lightroom:

WB 5000

Shadows +100

Highlights -100

Tint 0

There is a large difference in the image colors.  Whereas the SL's are almost identical in color, even at different resolutions.  

Here is the link to compare all the images.  I would appreciate your comments on what the issue is and how to correct it..

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Dc6qq_yxdf9DklJqlPQOsXP2xmHT3cQ-?usp=drive_link

 

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Edited August 25, 2024 by mauipilot

[Kiwimac]

18 hours ago, mauipilot said:

Maybe I can get some help from the experts here.

This is the situation.  I am NOT liking the images coming from my M11-P compared my others.  I placed the 35mm Summilux on my M-11P, SL 601, SL-3.

I then did the following in Lightroom:

WB 5000

Shadows +100

Highlights -100

Tint 0

There is a large difference in the image colors.  Whereas the SL's are almost identical in color, even at different resolutions.  

Here is the link to compare all the images.  I would appreciate your comments on what the issue is and how to correct it..

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Dc6qq_yxdf9DklJqlPQOsXP2xmHT3cQ-?usp=drive_link

 

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That is curious. 
 

The SL3 and the M11 series cameras have the same sensor don’t they?

[brickftl]

I've heard about this elusive magenta thing, never seen it on the M11-P. And if it does exist, is it a big deal to move a couple of sliders?

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[jgeenen]

Am 25.8.2024 um 04:18 schrieb mauipilot:

Maybe I can get some help from the experts here.

This is the situation.  I am NOT liking the images coming from my M11-P compared my others.  I placed the 35mm Summilux on my M-11P, SL 601, SL-3.

I then did the following in Lightroom:

 

Instead of fiddling with the color temperature and the tint slider, try the following first in the M11 dog:

a) go into the tone curve tool. Click on the red curve. Set a point in the middle (where it reads 128/128 in the input/output fields below the curve) and drag down very slightly (it should read 128/123).

b) click on the blue curve. Set again a point in the middle and drag down. It should read 128/126 

c) Finally, adjust the color temperature to your taste (don't fiddle with the tint slider)

I saved the changes for a) and b) (I prefer a slightly lower value for the red curve (128/124) as a preset that I apply to almost all M11 DNGs. It helps with the grays in outdoor/daylight shots and does not harm in artificial light.

Moving the tint slider (0 is too greenish already, try 10-15 instead) gives comparable results in daylight, but can affect indoor images negatively.

The root cause for this - that is the point of discussion: Some (including myself) think, that Leica tuned the colors to a slightly magenta heavy output (I am correcting this with the tone curves), other point to a poor white balance (I don't think so, the magenta cast is independent from the way you set white balance in camera (fixed, auto, symbol or even gray card). 

For me the recipe above (steps a) and b)) works almost 100%. Although I still wish that Leica adjusts the default behavior with a firmware update, I can perfectly live with my editing preset 

The recipe above applies to Lightroom. I just realized you are using Capture One. I believe you can do a similar thing there as well.

 

Edited August 26, 2024 by jgeenen