Getting the colour right on the M11 {split-off thread}

[KlausM10]

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vor einer Stunde schrieb ELAN:

 

So I dusted off my M11 and updated to FW 2.1.1 to see if the magenta cast has improved.  Sadly it has not.  Shot the M11 and M10-R side by side with the APO 50 lens in sunlight both AWB and Sunny, and the M11 images are noticeably more magenta. 

That was the reason for selling the M11P. I'm sticking with my M10P and am very happy with the colors. Although I will miss the USB-C port a bit.

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[Derbyshire Man]

As far as I know there was never any intention to change the colour balance in the firmware update, simply improve the crash situation. My findings are that if I allow large numbers of images to build on the internal memory or SD and have multiple connections to LR/C1 then I get issues. If I keep to internal memory and format after every connection then things are very stable. Obviously one cannot always delete after connection but the vast majority of the time it is straightforward.

[lct]

No color change here (link) but i don't use Adobe software normally.

[Smogg]

My guess is that Leica will never fix magenta cast or even admit that it has such a color problem. There is no point for them to waste effort and money on a camera that is in the final stages of its cycle. This will no longer affect sales. Everyone who wanted it has already bought the M11, some have already sold it due to unreliability or put it on the shelf. All reputational costs have already been incurred and partially corrected - little can be changed in this aspect. They sell the Q3 well and are happy about it (by the way, the Q3 with AWB is doing well). The Q3 is the main product that generates their profits. It's just business, nothing personal. The only hope is that the M12 AWB will work fine.

Edited May 28, 2024 by Smogg

[BillCB]

For the life of me I cannot see a magenta cast in my M11/M11-P files. I use Capture One. 

[lct]

5 minutes ago, BillCB said:

For the life of me I cannot see a magenta cast in my M11/M11-P files. I use Capture One. 

Either the culprit is C1 or you know how to use an accessory like this i guess. Just kidding 😉

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[Smogg]

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6 minutes ago, lct said:

Either the culprit is C1 or you know how to use an accessory like this i guess. Just kidding 😉

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It seems to me that the processing method has nothing to do with it. I often take frames by quickly pressing the shutter button, and they differ greatly in white balance. At the same time, the scene, composition and light do not change in any way in the split second between presses. The big difference in white balance between consecutive frames is visible even on the camera's rear screen

Edited May 28, 2024 by Smogg

[harmen]

Not using AWB is something I now so appreciate that I do the same with other cameras.

[lct]

14 minutes ago, Smogg said:

I often take frames by quickly pressing the shutter button, and they differ greatly in white balance. At the same time, the scene, composition and light do not change in any way in the split second between presses. The big difference in white balance between consecutive frames is visible even on the camera's rear screen

I have never seen this so far. Do you mean you noticed the co-called (sorry) magenta cast in fast succession of single shots and/or in continuous mode? Just curious.

Edited May 28, 2024 by lct

[don daniel]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb SrMi:

JPEGs or DNG? If DNG, which post processor and profile? Thanks.

Whether JPG or DNG, it doesn't make much of a difference for this assessment. Both the in-camera JPGs and the DNGs from the M11 have a magenta bias in natural daylight. And they still do with the new firmware. The difference compared to the M10-R is striking. However, changing the white balance wasn't the goal of this update. The main thing is that the camera now functions more reliably.

 

[Smogg]

6 minutes ago, lct said:

I have never seen this so far. Do you mean you noticed the co-called (sorry) magenta cast in fast succession of single shots and/or in continuous mode? Just curious.

Fast succession 

[SrMi]

56 minutes ago, don daniel said:

Whether JPG or DNG, it doesn't make much of a difference for this assessment. Both the in-camera JPGs and the DNGs from the M11 have a magenta bias in natural daylight. And they still do with the new firmware. The difference compared to the M10-R is striking. However, changing the white balance wasn't the goal of this update. The main thing is that the camera now functions more reliably.

 

The JPEGs colors are set when the file is created. DNG’s colors are undefined until the post processor applies a profile and its demosaicing.

I am asking this because I do not detect any magenta bias in my images, nor do I see it in the images shared in this forum.

[don daniel]

vor 17 Minuten schrieb SrMi:

I am asking this because I do not detect any magenta bias in my images, nor do I see it in the images shared in this forum.

Well, I have to say: I already thought so. 

[lct]

1 hour ago, Smogg said:

Fast succession 

OK so if you see color differences, they should translate in the exif data i guess. You may wish to check the following values on your successive shots. Do you notice different values? Just curious again.
• Correlated Color Temp
• Color Tint
• White Point

[elmars]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Smogg:

My guess is that Leica will never fix magenta cast or even admit that it has such a color problem. There is no point for them to waste effort and money on a camera that is in the final stages of its cycle.

I think you're doing Leica wrong on this point. The magenta cast is not a bug, but a design decision. Jono Slack, for example, and a well-known English photographer consider it so essential that they threaten to turn their backs on Leica if anything changes.

Leica has reconsidered the issue based on the discussions here in the forum. I don't know whether they have decided to change something or leave everything as it is. But the current update was certainly not the right opportunity.

Anyone who wants the magenta-cast to be removed (including me) should write directly to Leica. They respond to requests, especially numerous requests. This has always been the case and Staefan Daniel recently confirmed this again in an interview.

My favourite thing would be if there was a choice. Then all tastes would be satisfied. 

[lct]

3 minutes ago, elmars said:

The magenta cast is not a bug, but a design decision. Jono Slack, for example, and a well-known English photographer consider it so essential that they threaten to turn their backs on Leica if anything changes.

Not sure where/when Jono or either well-known photographer have ever referred to any "magenta cast". Would you have any link or any info to share about that?

[elmars]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb lct:

Not sure where/when Jono or either well-known photographer have ever referred to any "magenta cast". Would you have any link or any info to share about that?

It was private conversation with Jono, who knew from the known photographer. We both were in contact with Leica about this topic but with different opinions.

[colint544]

My M11 definitely has a slight magenta cast to its files. Before and after firmware 2.1.1. Always, since the camera was new.

I think this is likely a baked-in feature of the M11 sensor, and no firmware update will change that. You have to run the DNGs through a computer anyway, and it's a moment's work on the colour slider to fix it.

FWIW, after I did the firmware update, everything was fine, except the automatic zoom-in on live view had vanished. Tried a few things to no avail, but eventually did another camera reset, and that brought it back.

I've been shooting a lot of pictures over the past couple of days, really trying to test the reliability of the camera now. In and out of the menus, a lot of switching the camera off and on, Auto (not getting any random overexposure now), Manual, self timer, different drive modes. Changing lenses, coded, uncoded, formatting different cards, all of that. Haven't been able to generate any faults or freezes, so I'm cautiously optimistic. Not that I had much trouble with it on firmware 1.6.1.

Just that persistent magenta cast, but I figure I can live with that. I still think the M11 is a fabulous picture-making machine.

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[ELAN]

After a year and half with the M11 I shelved it because of the magenta cast (and the shutter thing) and went back to the M10-R where AWB is almost always perfect, day and night. I miss the M11 features (and Leica missed an M11-P sale) but I refuse to live with tweeting WB/Tint on most shots.  

[BillCB]

Do those who see a magenta cast see it when using  AWB - or on every colour balance setting?

I have been doing some product photography of items placed on a pure white sheet of inkjet paper. For fun I tried both over- and under-exposing. No magenta cast.