M12 wishlist

[username]

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10 hours ago, Stevejack said:

Leica needs to innovate though so that the shooting experience doesn't feel exactly the same as using every other digital camera.

I'd rather say Leicas needs to not innovate, so that the shooting experience doesn't feel exactly the same as using every other digital camera.
Instead they need to take a step back, and make the M12 a reliable, simple, super high quality camera again.

The digital M's are one-of-a-kind, the only digital manual rangefinders that are out there, with superb optics.
That's exactly what sets them apart from the competition.
The M11 already turned into more of a electronic gadget, with the live view metering etc.
Not to mention how the new generation of firmware that got introduced alongside was a complete shit show.
Nobody needs this.

My wish list for the M12

• reliability, and quick service if something is wrong with the 9K camera one just bought
• same sensor, but with better colors to boot
• faster startup, quiter / simpler operation by returning to the old school metering
• removing the useless iso dial
• sharkskin leatherette
• move the function button back to the front of the camera again

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[FarbSpieler]

As many like-minded people above, I ask Leica not to look forward, but inward. Let the creation of the M12 not be an exercise in modernity but in tradition. I want a true Leica M camera, not a Sony competitor in an M body. I ask for a camera that is a dogma—a faithful embodiment of the rangefinder idea, unmarred by excess or the temptation of convenience. I want an instrument that stands alone, uncompromising, a testament to purity and purpose.

What I don't want:

• No IBIS, for stability is in the hands and heart.
• No focus aids unless in LiveView—trust the eye, not the algorithm.
• No frame-line lever, as seen in the M240.
• No fn buttons, either on top or front, to clutter the sanctity of simplicity.

What I want:

• Simplicity.
• Elegance.
• Absolute minimalism—the essentials distilled to their purest form.
• A mechanical shutter that speaks in a single, satisfying click—a whisper of precision.
• A resolution of 24–40 MP, perhaps even lower, for fidelity is found not in numbers but in nuance. Let it favor the richer, truer colors of the M10, rather than the clinical sharpness and sheer pixel count of the M10-R and M11.
• Instant wake-up, for inspiration waits for no one.
• A rear screen flush with the camera body, seamless and unassuming.
• The classic bottom plate, a nod to heritage and craftsmanship.

Let this camera be a covenant. Unyielding to trends. Unwavering in its fidelity to the craft.

[kiwidad]

On 1/21/2025 at 7:15 AM, username said:

I'd rather say Leicas needs to not innovate, so that the shooting experience doesn't feel exactly the same as using every other digital camera.
Instead they need to take a step back, and make the M12 a reliable, simple, super high quality camera again.

The digital M's are one-of-a-kind, the only digital manual rangefinders that are out there, with superb optics.
That's exactly what sets them apart from the competition.
The M11 already turned into more of a electronic gadget, with the live view metering etc.
Not to mention how the new generation of firmware that got introduced alongside was a complete shit show.
Nobody needs this.

My wish list for the M12

• reliability, and quick service if something is wrong with the 9K camera one just bought
• same sensor, but with better colors to boot
• faster startup, quiter / simpler operation by returning to the old school metering
• removing the useless iso dial
• sharkskin leatherette
• move the function button back to the front of the camera again

In the leica world I often find myself confused.  IF there is something wrong with SOOC color on the M11 I sure haven't noticed it.  Shoot some film to refresh yourself on how much the light around us changes and affects the color of the image. But then since everyone who says its got issues seem to live by Lightroom and we shoot raw so we can tune it to be the best it can be what does it even matter? do I want my camera to make everything which is white actually white in differing light is my point! 

I see nothing wrong with the M11's color or for that matter the SL2 that just joined the family. I have noticed different lenses also can apply a "cast" to the image!

My wish for the M12 is something like an M11d, I control everything other than focus with three dials and a filter! To digress can I get a focus confirmation light too?

At the end of the day, as long as I feel good on the end of a red dot, I can fix everything else singly brain 🙂

Anyone else remember to how to set white balance to get those rich late afternoon colors?

[username]

@FarbSpieler ..you've put it in words so eloquently, and I agree with almost everything you say (I actually do like the bottomplate-less modern design, it's just practical, and I could use the 60MP (48 would be fine as well), not so much for the ability to crop or because I want to print huge all the time, but because it's nicer to retouch / dodge & burn etc.)

[Derbyshire Man]

9 minutes ago, username said:

@FarbSpieler ..you've put it in words so eloquently, and I agree with almost everything you say (I actually do like the bottomplate-less modern design, it's just practical, and I could use the 60MP (48 would be fine as well), not so much for the ability to crop or because I want to print huge all the time, but because it's nicer to retouch / dodge & burn etc.)

Sounds like they'll sell two then🤣

[hdmesa]

On 1/17/2025 at 1:02 PM, Crem said:

My impossible dream is the M12-S...

• 24MP SL3-S sensor

Can't be the SL3-S sensor as that has integrated phase detect AF circuitry. 

On 1/18/2025 at 3:38 AM, jaapv said:

The basic silicon may well be the same but it can never be the same sensor - it will have to be even more M-lens oriented.

SL2-S sensor with M-specific microlens array and cover glass.

The problem is Leica is under the delusion that the M11 set to a lower resolution is the same thing.

[jaapv]

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They should bring out an M11-S. 24 MP. 

[Crem]

29 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Can't be the SL3-S sensor as that has integrated phase detect AF circuitry. 

SL2-S sensor with M-specific microlens array and cover glass.

The problem is Leica is under the delusion that the M11 set to a lower resolution is the same thing.

Or could it? They could in software do a lot to augment the live view manual focus experience using phase detect pixels... things like auto zooming in on faces/eyes as you focus (and tracking them), telling you which direction to twist the lens to get focus, dual color focus peaking, etc. I expecting these types of augmented manual focus features to appear in some future M or EVF M. None of which I care about personally, but I do see the value in adding these advanced tech features to sell more cameras at an even higher price. I agree with it needing different cover glass and micro lenses. As @jaapv mentioned it's not Leica like to sell an M with less lens compatibility. I still just want a stripped down M12-S that acts like a M10-P.

Edited January 22 by Crem

[charlesphoto99]

42 minutes ago, Derbyshire Man said:

Sounds like they'll sell two then🤣

Possibly three if I could be convinced to give up my (brassed) black paint M10-R. 

[Crem]

21 minutes ago, jaapv said:

They should bring out an M11-S. 24 MP. 

Do you think there is any chance it will happen? I'm assuming 0% or as close to it as one can speculate in a public forum.

[lct]

0.1% then 😄

[graphlex]

Same color rendition as SL3.

[hdmesa]

50 minutes ago, Crem said:

Or could it? They could in software do a lot to augment the live view manual focus experience using phase detect pixels... things like auto zooming in on faces/eyes as you focus (and tracking them), telling you which direction to twist the lens to get focus, dual color focus peaking, etc. I expecting these types of augmented manual focus features to appear in some future M or EVF M. None of which I care about personally, but I do see the value in adding these advanced tech features to sell more cameras at an even higher price. I agree with it needing different cover glass and micro lenses. As @jaapv mentioned it's not Leica like to sell an M with less lens compatibility. I still just want a stripped down M12-S that acts like a M10-P.

Subject and eye detection doesn't require phase detection hardware. That's the AI algorithm evaluating the live view feed and looking for subjects. Leica could implement that today on the M11 in live view should they choose to port over the subject detection algorithms from the SL3/S.

It's focus confirmation that requires some on-sensor AF hardware plus an electronically connected lens, but the latter is not supported by the M system. The current 6-bit code reader only communicates focal length but not aperture.

[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

They should bring out an M11-S. 24 MP. 

You would have to go to Wetzlar, find the two most influential executives in the company, put one arm around each of them and whisper, "An M11 with the 24mp SL2-S sensor would be superior to the M11 in its lower resolution modes" 🤫 It may be difficult for them to hear this. They may cry just a little, which may turn into sobbing. You may have to support their weight so that they do not collapse in sorrow.

[la1402]

My wishes are simple. IBIS and some sort of better focusing aid without losing the OVF. And I would like to see something like a 40MP sensor with higher DR.

[username]

1 hour ago, Derbyshire Man said:

Sounds like they'll sell two then

Fine with me - the fewer they sell the faster the turnaround for repairs! 💁‍♂️

[Crem]

54 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Subject and eye detection doesn't require phase detection hardware. That's the AI algorithm evaluating the live view feed and looking for subjects. Leica could implement that today on the M11 in live view should they choose to port over the subject detection algorithms from the SL3/S.

It's focus confirmation that requires some on-sensor AF hardware plus an electronically connected lens, but the latter is not supported by the M system. The current 6-bit code reader only communicates focal length but not aperture.

Correct me if I'm wrong here... phase detect pixels tell you which way the lens needs to move to hit focus at a specific focus point without having to actually move the lens in either direction. Assuming this is true and I believe it is... Leica could use phase detect pixels on a M12 to draw a box around a subject such as a face and/or eyes... and use color coding on the box to tell you which way to turn the lens. Phase detect would determine the color. Say red to focus back and blue to focus forward. Then have the box turn green when it believes critical focus is hit. As you said this could be partially done without phase detect, but the camera would lose the ability to properly know which way the lens needs to move. My point is that with phase detect pixels they could make an advanced EVF only (or hybrid EVF/OVF) manual focusing system. They could even use a small corner of the screen to show a zoomed in view of the eye (with phase detect color coding) while you still see the entire scene. Like a Picture in Picture view. It would be interested to be able to accurately focus a EVF or live view M without having to zoom in. I personally do not like focus peaking and think a solution like I mentioned would be more useful.

Edited January 22 by Crem

[algrove]

a 12E for EVF and an S (24MP) model and R (60??MP) model. Otherwise I will wait for an EVF model.

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[charlesphoto99]

1 hour ago, Crem said:

Correct me if I'm wrong here... phase detect pixels tell you which way the lens needs to move to hit focus at a specific focus point without having to actually move the lens in either direction. Assuming this is true and I believe it is... Leica could use phase detect pixels on a M12 to draw a box around a subject such as a face and/or eyes... and use color coding on the box to tell you which way to turn the lens. Phase detect would determine the color. Say red to focus back and blue to focus forward. Then have the box turn green when it believes critical focus is hit. As you said this could be partially done without phase detect, but the camera would lose the ability to properly know which way the lens needs to move. My point is that with phase detect pixels they could make an advanced EVF only (or hybrid EVF/OVF) manual focusing system. They could even use a small corner of the screen to show a zoomed in view of the eye (with phase detect color coding) while you still see the entire scene. Like a Picture in Picture view. It would be interested to be able to accurately focus a EVF or live view M without having to zoom in. I personally do not like focus peaking and think a solution like I mentioned would be more useful.

Or you could just practice and learn which way to turn the lens. Right: subject is closer. Left: subject is further away. Seems like that would be a lot of blingy distraction to do the obvious, and what the traditional rangefinder has made so simple to master over the decades. Of course, YMMV if you use an EVF with the M (I don't - they make me seasick). I could see a box turning green when the eye snaps into focus (and/or arrows at the bottom or top of the screen telling you which way to turn, because "which way was blue again?." What if there aren't eyes or face in the shot?

Edited January 23 by charlesphoto99

[Stevejack]

34 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

Or you could just practice and learn which way to turn the lens. Right: subject is closer. Left: subject is further away.

It's funny, reading that I was sure you were wrong; using the focusing tab on the bottom of the lens I see it as Left: Subject is closer. Right: Subject is further away. Looking top down at the scale though it's correct as you say.