M12 wishlist

[lct]

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A free strap would be included hopefully 😄 Just kidding.

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The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[Derbyshire Man]

6 hours ago, lct said:

A free strap would be included hopefully 😄 Just kidding.

The purchaser can decide between two ‘kits’, one version with a strap, the other with a USB cable?

[pgk]

13 hours ago, evikne said:

I wish that Leica could be for ordinary people who love photography, and not just for wealthy people who want a luxury gadget.

Its certainly starting to feel that way.

[hjddd]

15 hours ago, evikne said:

我希望徕卡能够服务于热爱摄影的普通人，而不仅仅是那些想要奢侈玩意的富人。

They already operate the company as a luxury brand 

[Derbyshire Man]

The difficulty is when Leica operated the model suggested here by some of reduced tech, cheaper price, lower innovation, no diffusion products, the business nearly went bust. Personally much though I don't like being judged as 'fool with more money than sense looking for a label' if it helps the business survive and continue to produce and support essentially crazy products like digital rangefinders, monochrome full frame sensors, digital cameras without a rear screen so it can feel like a film camera then so be it. 

I was recently a bit shocked at just how much less solid and professional the R5 mk2 feels compared with a 5D mk4. And the R5 is £4500 for an item with a much bigger market and economy of scale. It's a technological marvel for its purposes but it certainly doesn't feel very confidence inspiring.

[Tseg]

I remain a fan of the D version M camera as my interest in the M is the retro experience.  The M11-D metal back disc layout and design is classic, durable and good looking.  It may be over-teched-out on the insides, but that can all be accessed as needed, and not noticed if not needed.  I think all future M digital cameras should do away with the back lcd screen.  If I could want one more thing it would be to add an additional toggle option to the thumb wheel when pressed where I use the thumb wheel to define a temperature setting for white balance, so I can manually set a white balance number.

BTW, a monochrome D would be very interesting.

Edited January 19 by Tseg

[Derbyshire Man]

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3 minutes ago, Tseg said:

I remain a fan of the D version M camera as my interest in the M is the retro experience.  The M11-D metal back disc layout and design is classic, durable and good looking.  It may be over-teched-out on the insides, but that can all be accessed as needed, and not noticed if not needed.  I think all future M digital cameras should do away with the back lcd screen.  If I could want one more thing it would be to add an additional toggle option to the thumb wheel when pressed where I use the thumb wheel to define a temperature setting for white balance, so I can manually set a white balance number.

Ah, that's where we part company, that toggle needs to go between shutter types! 

In fact it would be possible to reconfigure the current layout and controls to provide the ability to edit WB, Shutter, or better custom setup 1/2/3. This is a firmware and app developer bandwidth issue as much as anything else I would guess.

While they're at it, as I said, all of these M's should be momentarily showing shutter speed in the RF 0.5 seconds after stopping turning the shutter speed dial, just for a future 0.5 seconds for confirmation before reverting to arrows and dot. 

Edited January 19 by Derbyshire Man

[Ricky2024]

Would love to have IBIS. Global Shutter is second.

[pgk]

4 hours ago, Derbyshire Man said:

The difficulty is when Leica operated the model suggested here by some of reduced tech, cheaper price, lower innovation, no diffusion products, the business nearly went bust.

'Cheap' dSLRs have all the componentry needed in a 'cheap' M, other than the rangefinder. No matter how I try I can't see that the rangefinder (also fitted to film cameras) cost so much more. In essence a stripped down M (an M6 digital) with mid-20s MPixels should be a relatively cheap product (by Leiaca's current standards). To grow the company in today's competetive market with many compentent players will require more than simply luxury cost products which is potentialy (IMO) may finally shrink the compny. The past had a different marketplace with higher demand and much lower entry level prices.

[lct]

Makes you wonder why no one is competing with Leica if digital RFs are that cheap to product 😉

[Smudgerer]

4 hours ago, Derbyshire Man said:

Ah, that's where we part company, that toggle needs to go between shutter types! 

In fact it would be possible to reconfigure the current layout and controls to provide the ability to edit WB, Shutter, or better custom setup 1/2/3. This is a firmware and app developer bandwidth issue as much as anything else I would guess.

While they're at it, as I said, all of these M's should be momentarily showing shutter speed in the RF 0.5 seconds after stopping turning the shutter speed dial, just for a future 0.5 seconds for confirmation before reverting to arrows and dot. 

Ah, that's where we part company, I would like the toggle to switch between 18/36/60mps on the 11-D!.........Oh yes WB too, plus your VF shutter speed idea, plus plus plus.....

It's not going to happen, sure as eggs Leica has moved on from the 11 series now and is concentrating on the next M. I bet that the last firmware upgrade will be the last like what happened with the M10-D, sure we did get in-camera formatting, but I don't think anything else will be coming the M11's way. I've never been wrong before about anything but I hope I am wrong about that.

[didier]

17 hours ago, adan said:

Back to the hypothetical M12.

My wish list is short:

- An "M10.2" - meaning the original plain-vanilla 2017 M10.
- with the SL3-S sensor (if that pans out in use)
- M10 shutter, thus M10 off-the-shutter-blades metering,
- LCD, but no touchscreen (or at least a menu option to turn off the touch function).

Eventually, M12-P/R/R2*M/D versions - for those willing to pay the extra $/£/€. *R2 = 60-100 Mpixel version.

And even an off-the-sensor-metering M12-S or -E(VF)

It will still likely cost $9000+, because that is what Leica has determined any M body must cost, to pay its own way.

Because M cameras can no longer be considered as reliable "loss leaders" for anticipated lens profits, given the competition from: users' existing gear, the used market, Voigtländer, etc.

+1

My wish list for the M12 would be a M Camera with a traditional shutter and off-shutter blades metering. So efficient once you have some experience with it.

Regarding MPix, I like the 41 MPix from my M10M, just what I need. Allows me to crop when needed, and otherwise great.

 

 

 

[charlesphoto99]

On 1/18/2025 at 12:40 PM, Stephen.s1 said:

My Nikon Z8 fills the instant startup request.

 

And just how would one link a Z8 to an M12 to make it instantly start up....?  

[Smogg]

Why not just switch to the same sensor as the Sony A1 and ditch the mechanical shutter? That would free up space inside and perhaps allow for IBIS while keeping the camera size the same, and also get rid of the annoying shutter sound of the M11.

[T25UFO]

So called new technology is often rejected at the point of its introduction, only to become commonplace and widely accepted in a relatively short timeframe.

Apple has showcased several examples.  I'm old enough to remember when all laptops had keyboards at the front of the case; Apple moved it to the back to make space for the 'trackball', now replaced by the 'trackpad' and everyone followed.  

Apple replaced the large floppy disk with the smaller 3.5 disk, then the CD/DVD drive, then no drive at all.  At each stage this was seen as a mistake, but now adopted by everyone.  Same with cable connectors . . . big mistake to drop USB A and others, and replace with a single USB C, but C is now a common standard.

In many areas Leica is class leading, surprisingly so for such a small company - content credentials is a good example.  It was once said that converting the M rangefinder to digital was impossible, then we had the M8.  It was launched too early with insufficient development time, a cropped sensor and needed filters to correct the colour cast.  M camera development has continued to evolve and the latest iteration would have been unthinkable just a few years ago.

The way I see it is the only problem Leica has is its price point - a factor of economics and labour costs - and I don't see that changing.  So Leica has to play the heritage and exclusivity cards among other things, but actually the cost is not so bad once you've managed to jump on the bandwagon.  Trading up [which we call GAS] is a lot easier than buying your first Leica 🙂

[JNK100]

4 hours ago, Smogg said:

Why not just switch to the same sensor as the Sony A1 and ditch the mechanical shutter? That would free up space inside and perhaps allow for IBIS while keeping the camera size the same, and also get rid of the annoying shutter sound of the M11.

I may be in the minority, but I actually like the M11 shutter sound.

Your shots on Instagram are really good btw.

[Smogg]

22 minutes ago, JNK100 said:

Your shots on Instagram are really good btw.

Thank you🙏

[Stevejack]

19 hours ago, Smogg said:

Why not just switch to the same sensor as the Sony A1 and ditch the mechanical shutter? That would free up space inside and perhaps allow for IBIS while keeping the camera size the same, and also get rid of the annoying shutter sound of the M11.

If they split the M into two models with one being an EVF only setup in the M-body, I would agree with this 100%. No rolling shutter, 30fps burst mode, completely silent.  

Leica needs to innovate though so that the shooting experience doesn't feel exactly the same as using every other digital camera.  They don't need to compete on specs, they just need to provide an unmatched user experience. Leica has been lazy with innovation. Manual lens focusing via evf needs attention. Focus peaking isn't good enough, they need to come up with something that clearly indicates when something is in focus at any aperture, which is as fast and easy to use as the rangefinder. 

Put some haptic feedback into the shutter button so we can actually feel when a shot is taken. Bring back the raised rangefinder windows... I get absolutely no fingerprints on my M3 but on the M10/M11 my fingers always messy up the rangefinder windows. They friggin OWN the M3 design but they never use it. 

Everything from the feel of the  paint, the leatherette, the clickiness of the dials, it needs to be first and foremost a pleasure to hold and use. Nail this, and people will pay for it because it's an EXPERIENCE they can't get with any other camera. 

I won't pay for another EVF only camera that feels like using Leica lenses adapted onto an SL2, or Sony / Fuji / Canon.. there's just no point to it.  

Edited January 21 by Stevejack

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[Smogg]

1 hour ago, Stevejack said:

If they split the M into two models with one being an EVF only setup in the M-body, I would agree with this 100%. No rolling shutter, 30fps burst mode, completely silent.  

Leica needs to innovate though so that the shooting experience doesn't feel exactly the same as using every other digital camera.  They don't need to compete on specs, they just need to provide an unmatched user experience. Leica has been lazy with innovation. Manual lens focusing via evf needs attention. Focus peaking isn't good enough, they need to come up with something that clearly indicates when something is in focus at any aperture, which is as fast and easy to use as the rangefinder. 

Put some haptic feedback into the shutter button so we can actually feel when a shot is taken. Bring back the raised rangefinder windows... I get absolutely no fingerprints on my M3 but on the M10/M11 my fingers always messy up the rangefinder windows. They friggin OWN the M3 design but they never use it. 

Everything from the feel of the  paint, the leatherette, the clickiness of the dials, it needs to be first and foremost a pleasure to hold and use. Nail this, and people will pay for it because it's an EXPERIENCE they can't get with any other camera. 

I won't pay for another EVF only camera that feels like using Leica lenses adapted onto an SL2, or Sony / Fuji / Canon.. there's just no point to it.  

I am categorically against EVF. There are almost no cameras with OVF left in the world and this is very sad. Those who want to watch movies in EVF in the place of a clean image can do it now, by screwing a Leica lens to CL, SL, Sony, Nikon, Fuji. There is no need to release another camera with EVF, Leica M will lose its uniqueness. Haptic engine is of course mandatory in case of electronic shutter.

[Stevejack]

10 minutes ago, Smogg said:

I am categorically against EVF. There are almost no cameras with OVF left in the world and this is very sad. Those who want to watch movies in EVF in the place of a clean image can do it now, by screwing a Leica lens to CL, SL, Sony, Nikon, Fuji. There is no need to release another camera with EVF, Leica M will lose its uniqueness. Haptic engine is of course mandatory in case of electronic shutter.

No I agree, the M needs to be left alone and get back to being good as a rangefinder. They are stuffing too much into the M and ruining the experience. They are trying to keep everyone happy and end up pleasing no-one. This is why they should split it into two separate versions. 

I disagree there are other *good* options to use M lenses with an EVF camera though. The SL is the only viable non-M option for wider lenses and it's a bit of a slugger compared to the M body. It works, but it's definitely not the M experience. I use it when I need IBIS or I'm using a close focus adapter etc, but I don't enjoy shooting with it like I do with the M. 

 The M form-factor with an EVF and some proper attention given to the user experience would be a killer addition to the Leica lineup. Look at how popular the Q is, and it's only a fixed 28 or 43mm lens.