M12 wishlist

[Crem]

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2 hours ago, jaapv said:

The basic silicon may well be the same but it can never be the same sensor - it will have to be even more M-lens oriented.

Why? If it’s an entry level model with little to no fancy features then does it really matter? A bit more vignetting with certain lenses? A tiny bit of lost corner sharpness? Which lenses will have problems?

I use my SL2-S daily with various wide and normal M lenses. I always love the results and never noticed a problem with the sensor. I’m happy with the colors and grain even at ISO 25k indoors (zone focusing with a Summaron 28).

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[Derbyshire Man]

1 hour ago, Smudgerer said:

Absolutely, I do wonder if the constantly rising Leica pricing is cutting into Leica's customer base. I gulp when I read on the Forum about people talking here about going out with a couple or more of whatever recent Leica bodies, SL / S / M whatever, plus the likes of Noctilux's to bolt on with them plus spare 'Lux or two in the premium leather bags. Looking at the gear mentions on some images posted my mental math' at times comes up with sums north of 30K in anyone's money to photograph what?.........Cats? Flowers?

Ok, that last bit was somewhat harsh but truly it is bordering on stupid, even gross especially when you view some, not all by any means, of the imaging posted which in my humble opinion could have been achieved very easily with much lesser gear and far less €€€€€.

But it is what it is, it's Leica-Crack, and as far as I am aware it's still legal.

I pre-apologise for any offense.

I've not posted any flower, cat or dog pictures yet!

[Smudgerer]

20 minutes ago, Derbyshire Man said:

I've not posted any flower, cat or dog pictures yet!

There's a smidgen of hope for you yet!

[jaapv]

58 minutes ago, Crem said:

Why? If it’s an entry level model with little to no fancy features then does it really matter? A bit more vignetting with certain lenses? A tiny bit of lost corner sharpness? Which lenses will have problems?

I use my SL2-S daily with various wide and normal M lenses. I always love the results and never noticed a problem with the sensor. I’m happy with the colors and grain even at ISO 25k indoors (zone focusing with a Summaron 28).

That is not the way Leica works. Older wide angles have problems on SL cameras. On any M camera any M lens must be at its best. 

[lct]

Why not shooting flowers with my Leica? I will quit using my Bentley to buy bread if things go on like that 😄

[jgeenen]

this is a very interesting thread - one pressure groups asks for more technology (IBIS, sensor cleaning, MF assist, EVF), the other is asking for downsizing (lower resolution, back to lo tech exposure metering, back to the old shutter etc.). The only common denominator is a price cutting measure. 

All of this might materialize sooner or later with one exception - the price will not go down (which is simple math - Leica is not able to grow rapidly, so the output of cameras is limited. Revenue margins of cheaper gear are smaller, to compensate, Leica needs to produce more (which they can‘t). Of course, Leica could produce in Japan, Korea, China or Texas (with the help of low cost Mexican work force, probably) - they could do a joint venture with Sony (reviving the old Minolta cooperation contract). Would this model be a commercial success? I doubt it.

so back to the topic: which M12 group I belong to? I don’t want a step back from the M11 - I like the battery lifetime, I like the sensor resolution (for cropping), I like the convenience of smartphone data exchange. But I don‘t miss IBIS and focusing aids (I however do miss sensor cleaning aids). I don‘t like the weak accessory shoe with multi function as flash hotshot and viewfinder interface. A different connector implementation with nicer accessory designs (the Visoflex 2 is a nightmare) - that would be nice!

 

[Lee S]

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3 hours ago, Smudgerer said:

Absolutely, I do wonder if the constantly rising Leica pricing is cutting into Leica's customer base. I gulp when I read on the Forum about people talking here about going out with a couple or more of whatever recent Leica bodies, SL / S / M whatever, plus the likes of Noctilux's to bolt on with them plus spare 'Lux or two in the premium leather bags. Looking at the gear mentions on some images posted my mental math' at times comes up with sums north of 30K in anyone's money to photograph what?.........Cats? Flowers?

Ok, that last bit was somewhat harsh but truly it is bordering on stupid, even gross especially when you view some, not all by any means, of the imaging posted which in my humble opinion could have been achieved very easily with much lesser gear and far less €€€€€.

But it is what it is, it's Leica-Crack, and as far as I am aware it's still legal.

I pre-apologise for any offense.

It’s quite something boys are willing to spend on their toys and our other half’s on handbags isn’t it? 

A quartz watch tells the time better than any Swiss mechanical movement, an  IKEA bag holds items better than a a Hermes Birkin bag. 

I can get better image quality with me Sony A7III but it’s no where near as satisfying to use. 

Edited January 18 by Lee S

[Crem]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

That is not the way Leica works. Older wide angles have problems on SL cameras. On any M camera any M lens must be at its best. 

Thanks for explaining. I wasn’t aware of that. I was thinking of picking up an elmarit 28 v3. Is that one of those lenses or do we have to go back even older? Maybe an ancient 21? Thread mount lenses via adapter? I’m curious how many lens models we are taking about have issues. I’ll do some research out of curiosity. Either way I'm sure Leica could solve this problem. They have plenty of experience with custom micro lenses, cover glass, etc.

Edited January 18 by Crem

[Lee S]

M12  Wishlist  

1) Bring back off shutter metering as an option. I always find my M10 meters really well using this I don’t see a high difference in live view metering mode.
 

2) Larger magnification viewfinder and 40mm frame lines. 
 

3) LIDAR assisted focus aid (maybe)
 

 

[steveBK]

Really the only thing I ask, and apparently this is a big ask of Leica...

Absolutely, no-questions-asked, rock solid v1 firmware.  I do not want to be left on the sidelines for months to years wondering if it safe to buy yet.  

That's it.  Everything else is negotiable and a trade off.

I've waited so long on the M11 that there's no way I'm buying it.  Given historical release cadence, they could ship an M12 in the next 12 months.

[pgk]

2 hours ago, jgeenen said:

All of this might materialize sooner or later with one exception - the price will not go down (which is simple math - Leica is not able to grow rapidly, so the output of cameras is limited. Revenue margins of cheaper gear are smaller, to compensate, Leica needs to produce more (which they can‘t).

The film Ms are significantly cheaper than the digital Ms, and I doubt that the electronics cost more than the mechanics, which may well be as complicated and time consuming to build. So I don't think that its about producing more (film Ms still sell but I would suspect they make up a fraction of the sales of the digital Ms); its about margins. That said, produce a more usable M at a lower pricepoint and sales may increase and more camera sales should equal more lens and accessory sales. So its more likely about the fact that Leica are doing fine as things are and don't want to change direction. But as the pricing of digital Ms currently is placed they are starting to lose users like myself who will no longer buy new cameras because they are simply too expensive and actually don't offer us what we want.

[evikne]

15 minutes ago, pgk said:

The film Ms are significantly cheaper than the digital Ms, and I doubt that the electronics cost more than the mechanics, which may well be as complicated and time consuming to build. So I don't think that its about producing more (film Ms still sell but I would suspect they make up a fraction of the sales of the digital Ms); its about margins. That said, produce a more usable M at a lower pricepoint and sales may increase and more camera sales should equal more lens and accessory sales. So its more likely about the fact that Leica are doing fine as things are and don't want to change direction. But as the pricing of digital Ms currently is placed they are starting to lose users like myself who will no longer buy new cameras because they are simply too expensive and actually don't offer us what we want.

I can no longer afford a new digital M without winning a lottery or inheriting money. And if I were to spend that much money on a new camera, it would have to be something I REALLY wanted. I don't want any fancy gadgets that are outdated after a few years, but something simple and durable that can last a lifetime, like a film camera.

[Derbyshire Man]

I don’t think digital cameras do particularly wear out. I’ve got a canon 1ds from 2002 and it works fine. OK you can argue it’s ’out of date’. However it still handles the same way, still has 11mp, still has the same iso performance. The obsolescence thing is 99% marketing. I enjoy all of the cameras I have. Although I admit that it seems that upgrading a digital camera is more expensive than upgrading a film emulsion. However cost of film and processing really mounts up too.

At this stage the only thing that might convince me to swap any that I have is better low light focussing. Im not sure that’s possible but my R5 is pretty shit hot and a selectable mechanism using the sensor that could be used for electronic focus indication might be useful, an upgraded visoflex 3 with decent resolution might do the same but I’d be less keen on that. Rather than fixed frame lines electronic frame lines and an exposure guide that can show exposure and shutter speed at the same time. Otherwise, no need for 100mp, 30fps, iso 9 billion, 6 internal crop modes, ibis, etc.

[adan]

1 hour ago, evikne said:

And if I were to spend that much money on a new camera, it would have to be something I REALLY wanted. I don't want any fancy gadgets that are outdated after a few years, but something simple and durable that can last a lifetime, like a film camera.

Not really how technology works. Constant change throughout an industry is the model.

Which memory card would you want it to use - for a lifetime? PCMCIA? CF? SmartMedia? MemoryStick? SD(pre-HD)? xD-Picture Card? Remember those?

Want internal memory? How is it read out? Serial Port? USB 1.0? USB 3.0? Mini-B? USB-C? USB-(insert letter of your choice). Tomorrow's replacement for Bluetooth or Wifi?

Sensors are a basic requirement, but they don't last a lifetime. Try to get a replacement now for: a Digilux 1; a Digilux 2; an M8; an M9.

A "lifetime camera" will mean film (and keep your fingers crossed even then, and have a decent bank account for "a new sensor every roll, at NKr25 each"). Preferably pure clockwork (M-A, or used pre-M6: no batteries to become obsolete, or meter/wiring to wear out).

I do understand where you are coming from. 45 years ago, after there was an attempt to corner the silver market, and the price septupled briefly (before crashing), I thought about getting my own stash of silver ingots to keep in a closet - to make my own film. Just in case.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_Thursday

[evikne]

23 minutes ago, adan said:

Not really how technology works. Constant change throughout an industry is the model.

Which memory card would you want it to use - for a lifetime? PCMCIA? CF? SmartMedia? MemoryStick? SD(pre-HD)? xD-Picture Card? Remember those?

Want internal memory? How is it read out? Serial Port? USB 1.0? USB 3.0? Mini-B? USB-C? USB-(insert letter of your choice). Tomorrow's replacement for Bluetooth or Wifi?

Sensors are a basic requirement, but they don't last a lifetime. Try to get a replacement now for: a Digilux 1; a Digilux 2; an M8; an M9.

A "lifetime camera" will mean film (and keep your fingers crossed even then, and have a decent bank account for "a new sensor every roll, at NKr25 each"). Preferably pure clockwork (M-A, or used pre-M6: no batteries to become obsolete, or meter/wiring to wear out).

I do understand where you are coming from. 45 years ago, after there was an attempt to corner the silver market, and the price septupled briefly (before crashing), I thought about getting my own stash of silver ingots to keep in a closet - to make my own film. Just in case.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_Thursday

I've already passed 50, so a lifetime is not THAT long for me. 😉 And as mentioned above, digital cameras don't really wear out. If it's built simply and solidly, it can easily last 20 years or more. I may have expressed myself a little imprecisely, but what I really want is basically an analog camera with a digital sensor instead of film, as I've mentioned on several other occasions. I'm sure such a camera could last more than long enough for me.

[costa43]

My m8 is 19 years old this year and going strong. 

16 minutes ago, evikne said:

I've already passed 50, so a lifetime is not THAT long for me. 😉 And as mentioned above, digital cameras don't really wear out. If it's built simply and solidly, it can easily last 20 years or more. I may have expressed myself a little imprecisely, but what I really want is basically an analog camera with a digital sensor instead of film, as I've mentioned on several other occasions. I'm sure such a camera could last more than long enough for me.

My m8 is 19 years old this year and still going strong. As long as we have access to batteries then all is well with digital. I do fear that Leica has tasted the gold with its profits recently and they will just keep to the same strategy and play it safe with the next iterations. I hope I’m wrong. 

[evikne]

14 minutes ago, costa43 said:

I do fear that Leica has tasted the gold with its profits recently and they will just keep to the same strategy and play it safe with the next iterations. I hope I’m wrong. 

I wish that Leica could be for ordinary people who love photography, and not just for wealthy people who want a luxury gadget.

[Stephen.s1]

On 1/17/2025 at 3:02 PM, Crem said:

My impossible dream is the M12-S...

•  
• Instant startup as @charlesphoto99 said is an extremely undervalued feature that no vendor seems to focus on
• No more stupid scissor shutter noise every time the camera turns on... For the price... it could have a global sensor or stacked sensor or give me back the old shutter curtain metering

• A price less than the M11 would be icing on the cake

I

My Nikon Z8 fills the instant startup request.

No shutter... listen....

You could buy 2 of 'em for the price of a D11

I still love my My M10M and M10P but oh you kid! 

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[costa43]

21 minutes ago, evikne said:

I wish that Leica could be for ordinary people who love photography, and not just for wealthy people who want a luxury gadget.

I do too. I think you have a great setup though already. Two of the best lenses out there and a body that does it well. Irrespective of price, I don’t actually think there is an option currently that is that much better than the m10 to be worth switching it out for. 

Edited January 18 by costa43

[adan]

4 hours ago, evikne said:

I wish that Leica could be for ordinary people who love photography, and not just for wealthy people who want a luxury gadget.

OK - but as the old Scottish nursery rhyme says:

"If wishes were horses, even beggars could ride."
(alternative: "If wishes were fishes, no one would starve.")

"Analogue" and "cheap enough for everyone" are now mostly polar opposites. (I don't want to turn this thread into yet another watches/autos/audio/guitars latrine, so you'll have to look up your own examples).

It is simply now vastly less expensive to put as much as possible onto a chip (firmware or hardware) or other automation, rather than build analogue mechanisms with human labor.

There is "a Leica for ordinary people" (for a given value of "ordinary") - it is right here:

https://leica-camera.com/en-US/photography/cameras/d-lux/d-lux-8/technical-specification

https://cellpricez.com/cameras/Leica-D-Lux-8-price-in-norway-27.php

__________________

Back to the hypothetical M12.

My wish list is short:

- An "M10.2" - meaning the original plain-vanilla 2017 M10.
- with the SL3-S sensor (if that pans out in use)
- M10 shutter, thus M10 off-the-shutter-blades metering,
- LCD, but no touchscreen (or at least a menu option to turn off the touch function).

Eventually, M12-P/R/R2*M/D versions - for those willing to pay the extra $/£/€. *R2 = 60-100 Mpixel version.

And even an off-the-sensor-metering M12-S or -E(VF)

It will still likely cost $9000+, because that is what Leica has determined any M body must cost, to pay its own way.

Because M cameras can no longer be considered as reliable "loss leaders" for anticipated lens profits, given the competition from: users' existing gear, the used market, Voigtländer, etc.