M12 wishlist

[algrove]

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Focus confirmation in LV mode (LCD or EVF) could be accomplish with a FW update to the M11, no.

Guess they will want to put that into an M12 so that get can get us buying new gear.😁

[tappan]

I am very happy with my M10-P
🙂
Mark

[Steve Ash]

Instant start-up time like SL3. 

Oled visoflex with higher resolution

Black paint

same dimensions as M11

 

[ZHNL]

Ibis

EFCS or M10 shutter 

[Herr Barnack]

19 hours ago, Ecar said:

1- No freezes

2- No freezes

etc.

@Ecar  Ye gods, man!  Be reasonable!!

[ianforber]

IBIS and the same battery used in the SL and Q series

[jgeenen]

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I‘d like to see a vastly improved range finder - dual magnification including 21mm framelines, better eye-sight for glasses-wearers, LCD information instead of this silly 80s red LED, an improved baselength. That‘s already enough for a M12.

leica could boost there lens sales by issuing a ROM lens series that gives true EXIF data (if they don’t want to modify the mount, they could implement a NFC chip….

 

[Phil Holland]

Whelp.  For fun I guess.

• Switchable OVF and EVF
• More robust processing/refined software = no freezing
• Improved Startup Time OR Enhanced Low Power Mode (screens off, sensor not active until awakened)
• Expanded Aspect Ratio selection
• CFexpress (it's 2024)

That is the highest priority for me at the moment.

Lower priority, but curious to see if they can slam it into the thinner body of the M series would be:

• IBIS
• Screen Articulation of some sort

Neither of those are deal breakers for me, but yeah, IBIS would be nice for sure.

With more of a focus on an EVF, magnify and moving that focus point will need to be a control consideration above where things are now IMO.

I was very briefly involved with some of the features in the ASC Edition, particularly the aspect ratios I'd like to see those come to modern M bodies.

Very personal take.  Hate to say this, but as of this moment, I only own Leica Lenses, but zero digital bodies.  Though I like the SL3.  However, the M series is something Leica "owns" in terms of form factor and something other brands are working towards achieving.  I'd like to see them hit the M12 out of the park.  The bodies are iconic in form and function, but along the way we're omitting some of the modern technology and techniques that would make the cameras more useful and reliable.  The new bottom plate of the M Series has been more or less a home run. Buttons and Dials, no change needed unless adding an extra interface or custom button.  M does simplicity well, but simplicity can also be more advanced.

[jaapv]

Ummm.. This camera is 1954, not 2024  😂

[sometimesmaybe]

15 hours ago, elmars said:

Focus confirmation (green point lightning, when the center field is sharp) for those of us who love the rangefinder but have - sometimes - difficulties to focus.

this is exactly it. i see this as a good quality of life upgrade. in my canon 1v, a green dot lights up in the OVF up when the image is in focus. works reasonably well and this was tech from 24 years ago

i dont use my OVF because my eyesight just isn't good enough to nail critical focus

[thrid]

- Selective single frame lines or at least the ability to order a camera from Leica with custom frame lines (28/35/50 etc) and without a 6 month wait to get it...

- Maybe we switch to LCD generated frame lines and skip the optomechanical implementation?  

- Built in diopter for viewfinder or lower profile external diopters. The current ones cause too much vignetting. 

- Bigger viewfinder eyepiece.

- Viso3 with double buffered +120fps refresh rate

- Sensor with simultaneous dual gain read (Bracketed exposure) for massive 18 stops of dynamic range.

- Global shutter with optional shutter sound effect to eliminate the need for the current Rube Goldberg open-closed-open-closed-open shutter shuffle.

- Optional closed-open-closed shutter mode with AE-L lock assigned to function button. If you press the function button the shutter opens, takes a meter reading and stores it, closes. Maybe move the function button to the back of the top plate near where your thumb falls, so it can be operated blindly by touch without jolting the camera?

- 40-45MP?

- 1x1, 6x7 1.85:1 etc. and custom user generated aspect ratio overlays in Live View (maybe even as frame lines in the OVF? I really love the square format.)

- Instant startup / wakeup

- Larger internal storage

- Gasket on the lens mount. Maybe some sealed lenses at some point...

- Less bugs. Seriously Leica. 

- Faster turnaround time on repairs

- Brass top and bottom / black paint

- $5995 (LOL!)

Edited April 7, 2024 by thrid

[jaapv]

21 hours ago, thrid said:

- Selective single frame lines or at least the ability to order a camera from Leica with custom frame lines (28/35/50 etc) and without a 6 month wait to get it...

- Maybe we switch to LCD generated frame lines and skip the optomechanical implementation?  

- Built in diopter for viewfinder or lower profile external diopters. The current ones cause too much vignetting. 

- Bigger viewfinder eyepiece.

- Viso3 with double buffered +120fps refresh rate

- Sensor with simultaneous dual gain read (Bracketed exposure) for massive 18 stops of dynamic range.

- Global shutter with optional shutter sound effect to eliminate the need for the current Rube Goldberg open-closed-open-closed-open shutter shuffle.

- Optional closed-open-closed shutter mode with AE-L lock assigned to function button. If you press the function button the shutter opens, takes a meter reading and stores it, closes. Maybe move the function button to the back of the top plate near where your thumb falls, so it can be operated blindly by touch without jolting the camera?

- 40-45MP?

- 1x1, 6x7 1.85:1 etc. and custom user generated aspect ratio overlays in Live View (maybe even as frame lines in the OVF? I really love the square format.)

- Instant startup / wakeup

- Larger internal storage

- Gasket on the lens mount. Maybe some sealed lenses at some point...

- Less bugs. Seriously Leica. 

- Faster turnaround time on repairs

- Brass top and bottom / black paint

- $5995 (LOL!)

In short, a Sony with a red dot and AF disabled. 

[thrid]

2 hours ago, jaapv said:

In short, a Sony with a red dot and AF disabled. 

I'm not sure what makes you say that.

What I described is basically an M11 with a few fixes, tweaks and an improved sensor.

The larger viewfinder could probably be done internally without changing the external appearance of the camera. Leica has fiddled with this in the past. There is an internal mask that essentially looks like a square-ish keyhole that acts as a light baffle. The opening was reduced in size, when they went from the M2/M4 type RF to the cheaper stripped down M4-2 / M6 unit. That was a downgrade and gave us more tunnel vision. I know this because a few years ago, I talked with Don Goldberg about modifying my M6ttl with one of the old masks. So, it may be something as simple as widening the opening in the baffle a little and therefore would not change the external appearance of the camera. But it could potentially improve the visibility of the 28mm frame lines for many people (remember, not everyone has the same eyeballs)

Leica made LTM cameras with a built in diopter for many years, but I would settle for a thinner / lower profile incarnation of the current screw in diopter that didn't produce as much tunnel vision. The 28mm frame lines are hard enough to see without the diopter. The simplest and most elegant solution would be for Leica to allow the user to unscrew the entire eye piece and replace it with an alternate unit that has the diopter built in. Leica would probably charge $500 for the alternate eye piece, but it would be worth it.

The function button has already moved what? Once? Twice? We didn't even have one, when we started out.

If LCD frame lines were done properly you probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference between them and the optomechanical solution we use today. The 50/75 markings are a cluttered mess, unlike the clean view through an M2/M4. And you would not only be able to compensate for parallax, but also for focus shift affecting the FOV of the sensor coverage. Leica is already using an LED to illuminate the frame lines, so the historical continuity from the film days was broken some time ago. Besides, not too long ago you could order a brand new a la carte film MP straight from Leica with the frame lines of your choice blocked out. At the very least that would be a welcomed option, if it didn't delay the delivery of the camera by 6 months and cost an extra $1000 dollars.

Everything else I suggested like 1x1 frame lines or crop in Live View are a menu option that can be ignored if you have no use for it.

I think we all would like the next sensor to perform even better. Heck, it may even be made by Sony...🙄

I'm also pretty sure that no one is going to miss the clunky new shutter cycle if it can be eliminated and allow us to go back to something more akin to the 'snick!' that what we had for the past 60 years. The only way that is going to happen is if Leica uses a sensor with a global shutter. But if a global shutter means compromising DR, then maybe a dual staggered gain read at the receptor well would compensate for that. 

Except for the shutter cycle, which is a necessary compromise for matrix metering, a lot of the other issues I listed like slow start up / wake times, the buggy firmware and long turnaround times for repairs should have never been a problem in the first place and certainly not for a $9000 camera.
 
I'm probably one of the last people around who wants the M series to turn into anything other than what it is. I put off buying an M11 for months because of the new shutter cycle.

Kodak had to raise the price of Tri-X to $15 a roll to finally force me to begrudgingly embrace the digital M for anything but my day job. I was perfectly happy snapping away with my film bodies. I'm still shooting an older Nikon DSLR, because I hate EVF viewfinders and have no plans to go that route anytime soon. 

Anyhow...

 

Edited April 8, 2024 by thrid

[jaapv]

It is just how one regards the M camera. My personal ideal is a basic camera, as little automation as possible, concentrating on the image one takes. In my view even LCD framelines and Auto-ISO is just this side of acceptable. So: any sensor improvement yes, but the M9 offers all needed for the photograph and the M10 is the right size. All the rest is teaching an elephant to waltz and only leads to problems like we see on the 11. 

BTW a built in diopter adjustment would result in a complete and rebuild of the whole viewfinder/rangefinder. Leica has stated clearly that it is technically impossible with the present design.
The little handle on the LTM cameras was not a variable diopter; it was a focussing  adjustment for the viewfinder (see the infinity symbol engraved) which just happened to help more or less for eye compensation. Unlike the M viewfinder which is sharp from 1 m to infinity, for the ideal eye, a Barnack viewfinder must be focussed. 

My suggestion to Leica: forget about adding or changing anything, just make the M12 rock-steady reliable for everybody.

And get the repair department up and running smoothly. It is not the staff, they are fantastic people, but they are completely overrun.

[Herr Barnack]

On 4/6/2024 at 11:55 PM, thrid said:

- Less bugs. Seriously Leica.

- $5995 (LOL!)

But then it wouldn't be a Leica.  😢

Quote

- Faster turnaround time on repairs

We can't just throw Leica heritage under the bus for the sake of convenience.

Edited April 8, 2024 by Herr Barnack

[geotrupede]

a 50% reduction in the price of a new body 😉

[Smudgerer]

22 hours ago, jaapv said:

............... All the rest is teaching an elephant to waltz and only leads to problems like we see on the 11...............

 

Thank you jaapv, this wonderful visual analogy gave me a smile this morning, indeed very apt.............I do seem to remember though going to a circus in my childhood and seeing elephants doing something like this, well maybe not exactly waltzing but certainly acting in a way that a elephant really shouldn't be asked to do, rather similar into Leica's current obsession with trying to stuff more and more circus tricks into the M bodies and begging the question "why do this?"........As perhaps the dancing elephants themselves must have had the same passing thoughts.

[IkarusJohn]

When I take out my M-A (nothing in the viewfinder but the patch and framelines), I’m reminded that this is all about photography.  An improved M10, 40MP would be just acceptable (24MP preferable), more dynamic range across realistic ISOs, and I’m happy.  Actually, internal memory and none of this SD card nonsense we’ve put up with since the M9 would be good - @lct could stop recommending SD Formatter!  Think of the saving in bandwidth! 😂

[WvE]

It's not gonna happen but I would like to see the M12 as a simple, reliable hard-core photography instrument with a killer 24MP sensor (and preferably the M10-D faux-pas thumb rest). Leave the high-tech stuff to the SL line.

 

 

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[roelandinho]

- no lag, instant start and wake, no bugs, no freezing

- rangefinder improvements (bigger magnification, together with wider field of view, improved clarity, etc.)

- low megapixel count (around 15 megapixels) with great dynamic range and full color information in each pixel (for example by binning four regular Bayer pixels of a 60 MP sensor into one pixel). So 15 very high quality pixels and low file sizes.

- crispness like the M8 (thin filters in front of the sensor?)

- manual shutter advance lever like the film cameras or the Epson RD1

- sapphire screen

- no video features

Edited April 9, 2024 by roelandinho