The future of the SL system and why there is no roadmap for lenses

[Simone_DF]

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2 hours ago, TeleElmar135mm said:

it was sarcasm from me ... at the end this is the problem in the L-System. Promises but no real word lens. Today we have another 50mm from Sigma. Nice to have but iss this needet 1/3 stop more?

I disagree. The problem is only Leica, not the other L mount partners. Sigma releases since 2020:

105mm Macro

35mm f2

24mm f3.5

65mm f2

28-70 f2.8

35mm f1.4

150-600 f5-6.3

90mm f.28

24mm f2

20mm f2

16-28 f2.8

20mm f1.4

17mm f4

50mm f2

50mm f1.4

14mm f1.4

60-600 f4.5-6.3

100-400 f5-6.3

70-200 f2.8

500 f5.6

15mm f1.4 fisheye

50mm f1.2

+ a bunch of lenses for APS-C which I'm not even bothering adding here even though they are L mount.

You can find the whole list here

That's a total of 22 lenses from January 1st 2020 to today. While I agree that a 50mm 1.2 could be unnecessary, what else should Sigma release that is missing? I can only think of a more compact 135mm f2

In the same time span, Leica released only the 28 and 21mm APO + the rebadges, because "covid". Ok.

[TeleElmar135mm]

Yes an No: Leica has not fullfilled their roadmap and had some rebadges products and Sigma has developed many lenses and Panasonic has

But the Sigma line is in my eyes not the best (for full frame - DG DN prime lens):

3 x 50mm, 3 x 24mm, 3 x 35mm, 2x 85mm/90mm), 2x 20mm plus 1x 17mm

And yes it is nice to have the 14mm, 65mm  or 45mm  plus the varios but above 85mm there is no modern lens in all partners portfolio. And the new 70-200 (how long do we wait for this) is not for everybody.

So why not a fast/er 180mm, 135mm or 110mm instead of "uncountable" (add Sigma, Panasonic, and Leica) 24, 35, 50mm. That would make more sense to me and it is not only a Leica problem.

[Olaf_ZG]

1 hour ago, Simone_DF said:

I disagree. The problem is only Leica, not the other L mount partners. Sigma releases since 2020:

105mm Macro

35mm f2

24mm f3.5

65mm f2

28-70 f2.8

35mm f1.4

150-600 f5-6.3

90mm f.28

24mm f2

20mm f2

16-28 f2.8

20mm f1.4

17mm f4

50mm f2

50mm f1.4

14mm f1.4

60-600 f4.5-6.3

100-400 f5-6.3

70-200 f2.8

500 f5.6

15mm f1.4 fisheye

50mm f1.2

+ a bunch of lenses for APS-C which I'm not even bothering adding here even though they are L mount.

You can find the whole list here

That's a total of 22 lenses from January 1st 2020 to today. While I agree that a 50mm 1.2 could be unnecessary, what else should Sigma release that is missing? I can only think of a more compact 135mm f2

In the same time span, Leica released only the 28 and 21mm APO + the rebadges, because "covid". Ok.

Easy for Sigma. They didn’t had to release the m11, Q3 and SL3, not to mention all the special editions. They only have lenses to worry about…

[Simone_DF]

9 minutes ago, Olaf_ZG said:

Easy for Sigma. They didn’t had to release the m11, Q3 and SL3, not to mention all the special editions. They only have lenses to worry about…

They have the FP-L and they have been working on the Foveon full frame sensor for a few years

Edited March 26, 2024 by Simone_DF

[geronimosan]

1 hour ago, Simone_DF said:

I disagree. The problem is only Leica, not the other L mount partners. Sigma releases since 2020:

105mm Macro

35mm f2

24mm f3.5

65mm f2

28-70 f2.8

35mm f1.4

150-600 f5-6.3

90mm f.28

24mm f2

20mm f2

16-28 f2.8

20mm f1.4

17mm f4

50mm f2

50mm f1.4

14mm f1.4

60-600 f4.5-6.3

100-400 f5-6.3

70-200 f2.8

500 f5.6

15mm f1.4 fisheye

50mm f1.2

+ a bunch of lenses for APS-C which I'm not even bothering adding here even though they are L mount.

You can find the whole list here

That's a total of 22 lenses from January 1st 2020 to today. While I agree that a 50mm 1.2 could be unnecessary, what else should Sigma release that is missing? I can only think of a more compact 135mm f2

In the same time span, Leica released only the 28 and 21mm APO + the rebadges, because "covid". Ok.

How many lenses do you need?  Do you own all the lenses but still missed out on one particular shot because that lens doesn't exist?  Or is it just a numbers issue?  Is there a number of lenses that, if Leica had, would satisfy your argument?  What number is that - how many lenses, exactly, are needed?  High quality lenses are the real investment and should last decades - do you believe that new versions of lenses should be released every couple of years like camera bodies?

Edited March 26, 2024 by geronimosan

[Simone_DF]

1 minute ago, geronimosan said:

How many lenses do you need? 

I need the lenses I need. I currently have 5 different 50mm. I’d happily buy 5 more 50mm if I could. 
 

3 minutes ago, geronimosan said:

Do you own all the lenses but still missed out on one particular shot because that lens doesn't exist? 

Missed? No. But different lenses bring different results. Or we’d just buy one lens and be happy with that. 

4 minutes ago, geronimosan said:

Or is it just a numbers issue? 

Nope. It’s a matter of trust. A company that doesn’t invest in its own products doesn’t really gather the trust of customers, especially after the R and CL lines. Take Google for example. They have now entered an endless loop of people not buying Google branded hardware because they fear it will be discontinued, and people not buying hardware cause the product to be discontinued in a self-fulfilling prophecy. 

 

10 minutes ago, geronimosan said:

do you believe that new versions of lenses should be released every couple of years like camera bodies?

Not necessarily new versions of lenses, but new lenses. 

[Olaf_ZG]

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21 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

They have the FP-L and they have been working on the Foveon full frame sensor for a few years

Sounds like the sl24mm on leica roadmap: working, yet never coming…

[Simone_DF]

4 minutes ago, Olaf_ZG said:

Sounds like the sl24mm on leica roadmap: working, yet never coming…

The difference is communication. The Sigma CEO does public updates on the state of the works whenever there’s an update. If I remember correctly, the last one was about how they had to scrap their prototype and start again. 
From Leica on the other hand we get only silence, just look at how they handled the CL fiasco. 

[Olaf_ZG]

19 minutes ago, geronimosan said:

How many lenses do you need? 

Let’s say one buys into the SL because of its lenses. What I would like to see, and partially need:

a 85 or 105/1.4 portrait lens

a macro lens (like the s120)

a tilt/shift

a fixed tele.

Now, ofcourse I can buy sigma or panasonic for this, but then, why should I even buy anything from Leica for the SL? Sigma or Panasonic have it covered.

mind you, i used both brands and am happy that they are part of the l-mount, but I do believe Leica should bring out more “own” lenses. The rebrands might be great, the originals will be good enough for me.

And yes, we have APO and perfect lenses, but to me, the above are missing.

[Olaf_ZG]

3 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

The difference is communication. The Sigma CEO does public updates on the state of the works whenever there’s an update. If I remember correctly, the last one was about how they had to scrap their prototype and start again. 
From Leica on the other hand we get only silence, just look at how they handled the CL fiasco. 

And yet, people are buying, looks like they can get away with it. Until at once, sales stops… their current owners will not hesitate to sell stocks.

In my former life I was selling high-end bathrooms. The sky was the limit. And within some years, it was gone. 
 

Communication is key, and Leica is bad at it. Yet, I am stupid enough to talk about them. Crazy world.

[TeleElmar135mm]

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[geronimosan]

1 hour ago, Simone_DF said:

I need the lenses I need. I currently have 5 different 50mm. I’d happily buy 5 more 50mm if I could. 

Okay, well, none of your responses are quantifiable or qualifiable, so I'm guessing no amount, type, or quality of lens will satisfy your argument.

That said, I took a quick look at companies and their mirrorless 50mm offerings:

• Leica:  3 x SL 50mm lenses
• Canon:  2 x RF 50mm lenses
• Nikon: 3 x Nikkor Z 50mm lenses
• Sigma:  4 x 50mm lenses (their 4th announced, literally, hours ago and only available as pre-order)

So, in looking at your favored lens, Leica offers the same number, and much better quality, as the other companies. I'm not sure how you are coming to the conclusion that Leica doesn't have enough lenses and, evidently, hates their customers.

[Simone_DF]

3 minutes ago, geronimosan said:

• Leica:  3 x SL 50mm lenses

I do own one of them, the APO, which is great but bulky and heavy. The other ones are an excellent studio lens, and then there’s the Rebadged 3x price. 
I would like Leica to release a set of own-designed, in house smaller lenses, like a 90mm f2 and perhaps a 35mm f2 that don’t weight 1.5kg when combined together. 

[Simone_DF]

1 hour ago, Olaf_ZG said:

And yet, people are buying, looks like they can get away with it. Until at once, sales stops… their current owners will not hesitate to sell stocks.

They can get away with it because they are sustained by the Q and the M lines that sell very well

[tom0511]

Personally I wish more interesting lenses from Leica. Not so many rebadged old M design lenses for premium price, but give us some innovative useful lenses. Please!!!

Give us a 85/1.4 portrait smooth rendering lens, give us a 100 macro, give us a 180/2.0 SL prime, give us a 21-50/4.0 zoom, give us a Leica 70280/2.8 fast AF lens...and a 35/1.4 as well as a 28/1.4 or 1.8.

Give us nice lenses instead of limited luxury special editions.

Sigma lenses are nice, but I didn't buy a Leica body to use Sigma lenses,

Edited March 26, 2024 by tom0511

[geronimosan]

3 hours ago, Olaf_ZG said:

Let’s say one buys into the SL because of its lenses. What I would like to see, and partially need:

a 85 or 105/1.4 portrait lens

a macro lens (like the s120)

a tilt/shift

a fixed tele.

Now, ofcourse I can buy sigma or panasonic for this, but then, why should I even buy anything from Leica for the SL? Sigma or Panasonic have it covered.

mind you, i used both brands and am happy that they are part of the l-mount, but I do believe Leica should bring out more “own” lenses. The rebrands might be great, the originals will be good enough for me.

And yes, we have APO and perfect lenses, but to me, the above are missing.

Now, that is a great and specific list.  In fact, as I was gathering together my decades of Canon gear to sell, your first three lenses in the list is exactly what I realized was missing as well.  That said, I will make do with my 90-280 set of lenses to handle portraits and macros. The tilt-shift would be great to have.

No company offers every imaginable needed lens for every individual.  I've got the 24-280 set of SL zooms and that extra reach is needed for my work. As far as I know, only Pentax offers a 24-90, and no other company offers a 90-280, yet I'm not running around crying that Nikon, Canon, Sony, and Panasonic don't have enough lenses and that they don't care about their customers. 

/shrug.  Some people will simply never be happy.

 

Edited March 26, 2024 by geronimosan

[geronimosan]

1 hour ago, tom0511 said:

Personally I wish more interesting lenses from Leica. Not so many rebadged old M design lenses for premium price, but give us some innovative useful lenses. Please!!!

Give us a 85/1.4 portrait smooth rendering lens, give us a 100 macro, give us a 180/2.0 SL prime, give us a 21-50/4.0 zoom, give us a Leica 70280/2.8 fast AF lens...and a 35/1.4 as well as a 28/1.4 or 1.8.

Give us nice lenses instead of limited luxury special editions.

Sigma lenses are nice, but I didn't buy a Leica body to use Sigma lenses,

Well, I mean, to be fair, you knew before you bought the Leica body that in their lens line-up they didn't have a 85/1.4 portrait smooth rendering lens, a 100 macro, a 180/2.0 SL prime, a 21-50/4.0 zoom, a Leica 70280/2.8 fast AF lens, a 35/1.4, nor a 28/1.4 or 1.8, so is it their fault for not having the very specific lenses custom tailored to your individual personal needs or is it your fault for buying into a camera ecosystem when you had very specific needs that you knew Leica didn't provide?

[Simone_DF]

9 hours ago, geronimosan said:

Well, I mean, to be fair, you knew before you bought the Leica body that in their lens line-up they didn't have a 85/1.4 portrait smooth rendering lens, a 100 macro, a 180/2.0 SL prime, a 21-50/4.0 zoom, a Leica 70280/2.8 fast AF lens, a 35/1.4, nor a 28/1.4 or 1.8, so is it their fault for not having the very specific lenses custom tailored to your individual personal needs or is it your fault for buying into a camera ecosystem when you had very specific needs that you knew Leica didn't provide?

yes, but the point of this thread was the FUTURE of SL line, not the present. Is Leica not going to develop new lenses and we'll only see rebadged Sigma and Panasonic lenses for the foreseeable future?  

[la1402]

42 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

yes, but the point of this thread was the FUTURE of SL line, not the present. Is Leica not going to develop new lenses and we'll only see rebadged Sigma and Panasonic lenses for the foreseeable future?  

Yes. But I think anyone who goes into the system now has enough information to keep their expectations low. I bought into with the priority for a better platform of my M lenses. Sigma nd Pana are ok for AF/Zooms. As much as I want some APO primes, weight and AF hold me back. I'd be ok if they came out with Gen2 of the existing APO lineup at lower weight and better speed.

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[Simone_DF]

9 minutes ago, la1402 said:

I'd be ok if they came out with Gen2 of the existing APO lineup at lower weight and better speed.

That’s unrealistic. APO quality lenses require a lot of glass. Faster lenses require even more glass. You can’t have better speed, APO quality and lower weight. Basically you can pick only two of the three attributes above. 
I’d happily sacrifice APO for weight and speed. I don’t need all that resolution on my 90mm, and would be very happy with a gentler rendering.