SL3 vs SL2...

[huwm]

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28 minutes ago, Fgcm said:

Or switch to other brands. 

Why?

Sounds like the SL2 or SL2S just perfect apart from GAS

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[Fgcm]

35 minutes ago, huwm said:

Sounds like the SL2 or SL2S just perfect apart from GAS

True. My SL2 is still perfect after 4 years. It will last some more years, but, eventually, I will have to buy a new camera.

After decades spent shooting with Leica cameras, my next purchase could be a different brand.

I abandoned M cameras some years ago, partially due to my ageing sight which made focusing challenging, partially due to the evolution of the M design which is departing from what made it fantastic reportage camera. 

The SL3 simply doesn't fit the size of my hands. It's too thick for my small hands. It's also too heavy. The SL cameras paired with SL lenses are really heavy. Pairing with second tier lenses reduce the weight, ok, but the quality you get is on par with other brands which cost much less.

Q3 is a really nice camera. But my Q2 works very well for travel. I'm not poised to upgrade.

For decades, Leica lenses had been so much better than those of competitors that I used to forgive the many shortcomings of Leica cameras.

Now many very good lenses are available from many brabnds. I see no more reasons for preferring Leica to other brands.

I will choose my next camera afrer evaluating the quality of the lenses, but also the ergonomics, the weight (which ageing is getting more important to me) and the price. 

Photo is again a mature industry. Like it was at the end of the '90. But Leica has a lesser advantage in lenses quality.

This is my honest opinion. Maybe other could think differently. I'm not trying to convince anyone to do as I will. This is just a very personal opinion.

 

[Chaemono]

The much butter red channel of the SL3 makes the “upgrade” well worth it IMO.

Sean Reid shows in his studio test of the SL2-S that it produces the same red, orange and yellow as the SL2 and the original SL. In his studio test of the SL3, on the other hand, the camera shows much better red, orange and yellow than the SL2 to my eyes. Sean Reid only picks up on the better yellow.

The red channel had always sucked in Leica FF and APS-C cameras. The S3 was the first Leica camera that I tried where the red channel and the other colors were perfect and the files required very little time in PP. The red in Sean Reid’s studio test of the M11 also looked much better than the M10R red for the first time in a Leica FF camera. 

One can see how Leica fixed the red channel with the SL3 in these two YouTube reviews as well.

At 6:02 here with the APO 90 Summicron-SL, simply stunning reds and skin tones.

 

And at 7:52 here

 

 

[jrp]

The answer is that it depends a bit on what you shoot.

For landscapes in good light the SL2 is perfectly fine.  The SL3 has slightly better dynamic range, in my experience, which may be important.

The SL3 does not, unfortunately, get to performance levels of other brands when it comes to moving subjects.  The body / lenses are much heavier than the likes of the Sony range (and getting into the Fuji "medium" format weight class; this offers better still subject images, but the AF seems to be primitive, like the Leica, for moving subjects, in comparison to Nikon / Sony. / Canon).

[PeterGA]

2 hours ago, Chaemono said:

The much butter red channel of the SL3 makes the “upgrade” well worth it IMO.

Sean Reid shows in his studio test of the SL2-S that it produces the same red, orange and yellow as the SL2 and the original SL. In his studio test of the SL3, on the other hand, the camera shows much better red, orange and yellow than the SL2 to my eyes. Sean Reid only picks up on the better yellow.

ked in LThe red channel had always suceica FF and APS-C cameras. The S3 was the first Leica camera that I tried where the red channel and the other colors were perfect and the files required very little time in PP. The red in Sean Reid’s studio test of the M11 also looked much better than the M10R red for the first time in a Leica FF camera. 

One can see how Leica fixed the red channel with the SL3 in these two YouTube reviews as well.

At 6:02 here with the APO 90 Summicron-SL, simply stunning reds and skin tones.

Kind of begs the question - what exactly is 'better' ? 

 

Edited March 29, 2024 by PeterGA

[Chaemono]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb PeterGA:

Kind of begs the question - what exactly is 'better' ? 

 

I should have said „more accurate.“ One can see it in Sean Reid‘s over/under test with the SL2  and one doesn’t have to spend time fixing the skin tones and the reds with SL3 DNGs in post which sometimes messes up the rest of the colors. 

[SrMi]

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1 hour ago, Chaemono said:

I should have said „more accurate.“ One can see it in Sean Reid‘s over/under test with the SL2  and one doesn’t have to spend time fixing the skin tones and the reds with SL3 DNGs in post which sometimes messes up the rest of the colors. 

Shooting tulips in Keukenhof, I was very impressed with the reds.

Shooting paintings in Rijkmuseum, I was impressed with the colors in general.

[tom0511]

I wonder which converter and which profile Reid uses?

I recently aquired cobalt profiles for the sl2-s in Lightroom and like them.

[Chaemono]

vor 32 Minuten schrieb tom0511:

I wonder which converter and which profile Reid uses?

I recently aquired cobalt profiles for the sl2-s in Lightroom and like them.

Photographed with WhiBal card, converted in LR with Adobe Color profile with NR zeroed and default sharpening. 

[trickness]

5 hours ago, Chaemono said:

I should have said „more accurate.“ One can see it in Sean Reid‘s over/under test with the SL2  and one doesn’t have to spend time fixing the skin tones and the reds with SL3 DNGs in post which sometimes messes up the rest of the colors. 

For 7k, I’m ok with tweaking a few sliders in Lightroom. 

[SrMi]

5 minutes ago, trickness said:

For 7k, I’m ok with tweaking a few sliders in Lightroom. 

Getting the color s right (which may not mean accurate) is notoriously hard and involves more than tweaking a few sliders.

[trickness]

10 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Getting the color s right (which may not mean accurate) is notoriously hard and involves more than tweaking a few sliders.

“Notoriously hard”? I’ve been using my SL2 since it was released, and the color is fantastic. If I want to tweak it, it’s just a matter of knowing how to use my tools, Lightroom etc. - but it’s not usually necessary. In any case it’s part of the fun of the creative process. Albeit I’m not a wedding photographer.

SL3 image gallery certainly doesn’t make a strong case of “wow, the color is so much better/accurate” than the SL2 gallery. These online reviews are repeated like gospel but if you take pictures of things other than tomatoes and coins honestly it’s splitting hairs.

 

Edited March 30, 2024 by trickness

[tom0511]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Chaemono:

Photographed with WhiBal card, converted in LR with Adobe Color profile with NR zeroed and default sharpening. 

I use LR myself because I prefer it over c1 user interface, but as far as Inbelievebthenadobe profiles are not that great. I heard several times c1 should do a better  job wit the reds. 
 

 

Edited March 30, 2024 by tom0511

[SrMi]

13 minutes ago, trickness said:

“Notoriously hard”? I’ve been using my SL2 since it was released, and the color is fantastic. If I want to tweak it, it’s just a matter of knowing how to use my tools, Lightroom etc. - but it’s not usually necessary. In any case it’s part of the fun of the creative process. Albeit I’m not a wedding photographer.

SL3 image gallery certainly doesn’t make a strong case of “wow, the color is so much better/accurate” than the SL2 gallery. These online reviews are repeated like gospel but if you take pictures of things other than tomatoes and coins honestly it’s splitting hairs.

 

It is great if you get the colors right without any additional tuning needed. However, you were talking about tuning the colors right when they are not to your liking after import.

There is a reason why people prefer cameras that produce colors to their liking without any post processing.

[Photoworks]

1 hour ago, Chaemono said:

Photographed with WhiBal card, converted in LR with Adobe Color profile with NR zeroed and default sharpening. 

So what you really like is the LrC colors? you probably should praise Adobe.
I can see much difference between Sl2 and SL3, which is a good thing, I can use them side by side.

[SrMi]

4 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

So what you really like is the LrC colors? you probably should praise Adobe.
I can see much difference between Sl2 and SL3, which is a good thing, I can use them side by side.

It is a combination of SL3 colors with certain (default) Adobe profile.

[Chaemono]

vor 11 Minuten schrieb Photoworks:

So what you really like is the LrC colors? you probably should praise Adobe.
I can see much difference between Sl2 and SL3, which is a good thing, I can use them side by side.

No, Leica finally fixed the red channel in their FF cameras starting with the M11. 

https://blog.adobe.com/en/publish/2018/04/03/april-lightroom-adobe-camera-raw-releases-new-profiles

“Our profiles incorporate deep imaging science and take into consideration the colors of the filters used on top of the sensors (the array of red, green, and blue filters that help an otherwise colorblind sensor “see” the colorful world around us), the specific sensitivity of the sensor used, the sensor’s characteristics in different lighting conditions and with different ISO values…”

[Photoworks]

6 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

No, Leica finally fixed the red channel in their FF cameras starting with the M11. 

https://blog.adobe.com/en/publish/2018/04/03/april-lightroom-adobe-camera-raw-releases-new-profiles

“Our profiles incorporate deep imaging science and take into consideration the colors of the filters used on top of the sensors (the array of red, green, and blue filters that help an otherwise colorblind sensor “see” the colorful world around us), the specific sensitivity of the sensor used, the sensor’s characteristics in different lighting conditions and with different ISO values…”

aren't you reading too much into the marketing material?

If you open a file in LrC, the current version, the color details are much better than the same file on Lightroom from a few years ago. Same DNG, yes processing improves.

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[tom0511]

I just shot three family members with three cameras (S3, SL2-S and M11 (I don't own a SL3), looked at them in LR with adobe as well as cobalt profiles (for the M11 and SL2-S).

I also shot some red stuff (coke-bottle for example). I then looked at skin color and red color. Guess what...Overall the S3 seemed the most consistent/pleasing skin color for my taste, always being fine, but in one of the three faces I slightly preferred the skin color from SL2-S with cobalt and in another that from the M11.

I can't post images because the "models" (family members) don't want to. The change of profiles seemed to have more influence on the skin and red color than which camera I choose. There has been a tendency the S3 to overall look most natural, and yes, maybe the M11 slightly stronger red if you choose the same type of profile.

I am not declining that Leica has improved red channel with the S3 and SL3/M11 sensors, (I have read it so often that I believe it), but I don't believe that's world apart.

Everybody not being happy with red in LR I would recommend to play around with different profiles and converters. 

Edited March 30, 2024 by tom0511

[trickness]

1 hour ago, SrMi said:

It is great if you get the colors right without any additional tuning needed. However, you were talking about tuning the colors right when they are not to your liking after import.

There is a reason why people prefer cameras that produce colors to their liking without any post processing.

In the history of photography, it’s extremely rare that any of the images that are considered to have great artistic merit did not have any “post processing”.

This whole “it’s gotta be great straight out of the camera with no processing” thing is akin to a point and shoot mentality. Whether we are talking about classic darkroom processing or working on the computer, what comes out of the camera is just a starting point. And there isn’t a single camera on the planet that is going to spit something out that matches my exact creative vision - and if there ever were to be such a camera, perhaps powered by AI, I wouldn’t buy it because it would just be a tool for lazy photography.

These differences/improvements in dynamic range and noise and color with every new camera that comes out are in reality quite fractional, relative to the improvements that the individual photographer can make just by knowing how to use their tools properly. But many of these reviewers/influencers won’t say that, because it doesn’t generate clicks, views, or repeat invites to Wetzlar for launch events.

I do think Jono and Sean Reid do essentially say this fairly frequently when reviewing new products. I’m not trying to be contrary just to be contrary; I’m hoping somebody on the market for a body that comes here and reads this understands that these differences are not as sweeping and dynamic as the marketing propaganda would have one believe.

SL2 color is quite good. No issues/complaints/problems with it over 40,000 images shot.

Edited March 30, 2024 by trickness