Trick or Treat?

[Anbaric]

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1 hour ago, beoon said:

I cannot find any mention of this type of camera in any of my Leica books, the grey hammertone MD cameras of a similar period have a very different finish.

The seller is actually only about 1 hours drive from myself, looks too good to be true.

https://f22cameras.com/en/leica-m2-hammertone-repainted-by-takahashi-studio-japan

You wouldn't even have had to send your M2 to Japan to get a hammertone finish. The late Peter Grisaffi used to do this down in Luton:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/fotopiahk/8747678420

There is another M2 hammertone (described as a repaint) on ebay right now.

Nowhere in the 305405981751 listing does it say this is the factory finish, and taking the auction at face value the seller may have no idea themselves.

[zeitz]

2 hours ago, Anbaric said:

taking the auction at face value the seller may have no idea themselves

One of the issues I have in general with real auctions is that the provenance of the item is impossible to trace backwards because the owner is anonymous.  There have been a number of items on the Leitz Photographica Auction recently that I truly question the authenticity.  These items were from Soviet era manufacturers.  The prices were so high that it is highly profitable for a skilled artisan to manufacture them.  At least on ebay a potential buyer can contact the real seller, often the owner, during the auction.

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[Anbaric]

38 minutes ago, zeitz said:

One of the issues I have in general with real auctions is that the provenance of the item is impossible to trace backwards because the owner is anonymous.  There have been a number of items on the Leitz Photographica Auction recently that I truly question the authenticity.  These items were from Soviet era manufacturers.  The prices were so high that it is highly profitable for a skilled artisan to manufacture them.  At least on ebay a potential buyer can contact the real seller, often the owner, during the auction.

In this case the seller could be contacted, but as it sounds like they are selling an inherited collection, they may know no more about the provenance of the camera than is stated in the listing, which isn't nearly enough to identify this as a camera in its original condition. I suppose if this one turned up in a major specialised auction with a catalogue, there would at least be time to ask Leica about the serial number - if nothing special were recorded, I think the assumption would be that the finish is a third party job. That may add some modest value to a standard M2, because some people like this sort of thing, but I imagine there would be a very large gap between the value of a repaint and a previously unknown factory original. As it is, maybe someone who has done their homework with the archive already and knows something we don't will get a bargain. Or maybe someone who thinks this camera is more than it is will end up overpaying for a common repaint, and as it's a non-returnable item with no specific claims about originality in the listing they'll be stuck with it.

[pgk]

3 minutes ago, Anbaric said:

In this case the seller could be contacted, but as it sounds like they are selling an inherited collection, they may know no more about the provenance of the camera than is stated in the listing, which isn't nearly enough to identify this as a camera in its original condition.

For me the problem is this: if I was selling something inherited and of potential value I would do a little homework on it which is easy these days. It should be obvious from fairly straightforward searches that the one in question is both unusual and clean and that any M2 should be worth a reasonable amount of money. So I would be seeking a more expert view before trying to sell it; basic due diligence. So I am inherently suspicious of such items, especially when a seller has no feedback and is new to ebay. I would like to hope that I am overly cynical and that the description accurate and everything is above board. But unfortunately I am cynical and generally when something looks potentially dubious I think that it will be. Maybe I'm wrong.

[jc_braconi]

Looks all genuine for me 

I know by experience that if you use Paypal for paying, there is no risk at all, they provide a full refund, whatever the amount.

If the selle ask only bank transfert I wld stay out of this

[M.Hilo]

I have bought from Ebay sellers many times and have never had any problems. With auction houses I have had my share of problems. In particular with buying rare photobooks.

But I try to stay away from potential problems. In his key line of text about this item, this seller writes:

In my father’s notes relating to the camera it looks as if it was bought in Germany in 1963 and there is a note which says “WACHSMUTH M2-entwiklung” but we do not know what this means.

"it looks as if" is not conclusive and afterwards he cannot be held responsible for stating when the camera was bought. Someone who writes this is aware of what he writes. It is still very possible all is okay. But I would not become involved.

 

[willeica]

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Price has now gone over £1K.

William 

[Anbaric]

1 hour ago, pgk said:

For me the problem is this: if I was selling something inherited and of potential value I would do a little homework on it which is easy these days. It should be obvious from fairly straightforward searches that the one in question is both unusual and clean and that any M2 should be worth a reasonable amount of money. So I would be seeking a more expert view before trying to sell it; basic due diligence. So I am inherently suspicious of such items, especially when a seller has no feedback and is new to ebay. I would like to hope that I am overly cynical and that the description accurate and everything is above board. But unfortunately I am cynical and generally when something looks potentially dubious I think that it will be. Maybe I'm wrong.

Yes, while a naive trader might sell a camera with a rare original finish in this way (not realising they would be better off getting it authenticated and sold at a specialised auction), a less naive seller with a repaint to shift might do the same thing and allow potential purchasers to assume what they like. Either way, saying that (e.g.) a camera was bought in Germany in 1963 isn't the same thing as saying it was sold with this finish at that time, or that it left the factory in this state, or that the previous collector was the purchaser. Sixty years is plenty of time for a repaint, and the seller wouldn't necessarily know about it. Some collectors have all kinds of things done to their gear, and may not record this customisation. It might even have been refinished by a third party in the 5 years between its production and the supposed sale in 1963, perhaps for some industrial purpose. Without factory records, anything is possible, but only a factory finish would make it really valuable.

[willeica]

37 minutes ago, Anbaric said:

Yes, while a naive trader might sell a camera with a rare original finish in this way (not realising they would be better off getting it authenticated and sold at a specialised auction), a less naive seller with a repaint to shift might do the same thing and allow potential purchasers to assume what they like. Either way, saying that (e.g.) a camera was bought in Germany in 1963 isn't the same thing as saying it was sold with this finish at that time, or that it left the factory in this state, or that the previous collector was the purchaser. Sixty years is plenty of time for a repaint, and the seller wouldn't necessarily know about it. Some collectors have all kinds of things done to their gear, and may not record this customisation. It might even have been refinished by a third party in the 5 years between its production and the supposed sale in 1963, perhaps for some industrial purpose. Without factory records, anything is possible, but only a factory finish would make it really valuable.

 I agree with all of that, but this is a case of 'let the buyer beware + the market will decide'. Personally, I would never buy anything for a tarted up finish, but sometimes I have bought items with such finishes because they were intrinsically desirable. I'm not sure that this item has anything special going for it, apart from the finish, but others may view this differently. 

William 

[250swb]

1 hour ago, willeica said:

. I'm not sure that this item has anything special going for it, apart from the finish, but others may view this differently. 

William 

Two things come to mind, one is that the hammer finish is far better than the current aftermarket finishes, and two, the curious asterisk after the serial number. It may have been a camera sent back to Leica for customisation, or pre-ordered with it, but why the asterisk?

[Anbaric]

Does the '*' ever mean anything other than a duplicate serial number?

[willeica]

1 hour ago, 250swb said:

Two things come to mind, one is that the hammer finish is far better than the current aftermarket finishes, and two, the curious asterisk after the serial number. It may have been a camera sent back to Leica for customisation, or pre-ordered with it, but why the asterisk?

 A duplicate, as Anbaric says. I have several such * items in my collection and I have not seen it used for another purpose. In the early days an 'a' was used. The hammer finish looks good, but it would not be on my 'radar'.

 

William 

[pgk]

Interestingly I am looking at another camera on the bay which has an interesting description to say the least (its not a Leica). Its described as very rare which it may or may not be as, from my knowlege, it has been hacked about and the stated 'claim' of its date and maker are open to question to say the least. Despite this it is getting bids. It could just be what it says it is but even so its been obviously modified and also has damage and clearly replaced parts. The seller has both a 100% ratng and a good number of sales and has been selling for quite a time. Which is why it is neccesary to be very wary unfortunately. I will be interested to see how it goes.

[pgk]

Well the M2 went for a reasonable if not excessively high price which quite likely suggests that bidders saw it as a risk with the high potential for not being quite as original as might be hoped for. 

[willeica]

31 minutes ago, pgk said:

Well the M2 went for a reasonable if not excessively high price which quite likely suggests that bidders saw it as a risk with the high potential for not being quite as original as might be hoped for. 

Can't find this now, Paul. How did the price compare to the normal one for an M2 and Visoflex with no fancy plating?

William 

[pgk]

£2175 which is high but for a boxed camera and visoflex, all very clean and assuming a repaint, is probably not unreasonable. Dealers are selling repaints for a small premium sometimes, probably because most will have had a thorough service when painted. So not nearly as excessive as it would have been if it had been originally this finish and with a provenance.

[willeica]

1 hour ago, pgk said:

£2175 which is high but for a boxed camera and visoflex, all very clean and assuming a repaint, is probably not unreasonable. Dealers are selling repaints for a small premium sometimes, probably because most will have had a thorough service when painted. So not nearly as excessive as it would have been if it had been originally this finish and with a provenance.

Sounds about right, Paul. As you know, I would never have a camera repainted.

William 

[sandro]

About repaint: everyone has his/her own preferences but I like the camera as it was meant to be so repainting is not something I would pay for. Many years ago a dealer offered me his blue repainted M6TTL and said it would be a great investment because the camera was so unique. I didn't buy it, not my kind of uniqueness.

Lex

[Anbaric]

Well, either someone (as seems most likely) paid a not too reasonable price for those who like this sort of thing (good paint jobs aren't cheap, and there tends to be a long waiting list) or this will turn up at auction in a couple of months with documentation from the Leica archive that pushes the price into the stratosphere! Now that Leica itself has a finger in the pie of vintage camera sales and auctions, I wonder if anyone is tasked with keeping an eye on ebay and other auction sites for genuine rarities they may have information about from the archive? Though I suppose most of the real bargains of this sort come from things like estate sales and less visible auctions (like that 'first IIId' that was identified here a while ago).

Edited March 3 by Anbaric

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