SL3 Rumored Price

[Jipster]

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3 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

What I meant is that the tech inside the Z9 and the A1 is expensive. The A1 has a stacked sensor for example. These things cost. The SL2 innards are “cheap” by comparison, and not too different from the S1R. The higher price of the SL2 has to do with the Leica brand positioning as a luxury and lifestyle brand vs more expensive tech of other brands. 

Germany labor cost is not China’s or Thailand’s. Leica support comes at a cost: allowing old Ms to be repaired, as well as lenses has a cost. Finally, Leica support for photographers is also costly. I wish Leica were cheaper, but to think the cost is simply branding is erroneous.

[Simone_DF]

18 minutes ago, Jipster said:

Germany labor cost is not China’s or Thailand’s. Leica support comes at a cost: allowing old Ms to be repaired, as well as lenses has a cost. Finally, Leica support for photographers is also costly. I wish Leica were cheaper, but to think the cost is simply branding is erroneous.

I reckon cost of labor in Japan is expensive (Sigma, Voigtlander), and cost of labor in Portugal is cheaper (Leica). 
Leica support is the industry’s joke. It takes months to get a repair. Don’t know about Sony, but Canon’s service is top notch and fast. 

[tomasis7]

Reckon? Japanese ones are fairly low. Even less than Lithuania. 

https://data.oecd.org/earnwage/average-wages.htm

Edited February 6, 2024 by tomasis7

[jaapv]

33 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

I reckon cost of labor in Japan is expensive (Sigma, Voigtlander), and cost of labor in Portugal is cheaper (Leica). 
Leica support is the industry’s joke. It takes months to get a repair. Don’t know about Sony, but Canon’s service is top notch and fast. 

The average monthly income in Portugal is 1.269,34 Euro, in Japan 1953,69 Euro.

However, Portugal only produces subassemblies and binoculars. (and occasionally assembles lenses due to geopolitics)

[helged]

15 minutes ago, jaapv said:

The average monthly income in Portugal is 1.269,34 Euro, in Japan 1953,69 Euro.

However, Portugal only produces subassemblies and binoculars. (and occasionally assembles lenses due to geopolitics)

And for Germany about 4000EURO: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1407317/average-monthly-wage-full-time-employees-gender-germany/#:~:text=Average monthly wage of full,in Germany 2021%2C by gender&text=In 2021%2C the average monthly,monthly salary at 4%2C275 euros.

[BernardC]

4 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

What I meant is that the tech inside the Z9 and the A1 is expensive. The A1 has a stacked sensor for example. These things cost.

Why would you think that a camera's selling price is related to production costs? It's somewhat related, of course, but do you think it's a coincidence that every range-topping camera sells for the same price, or that every entry-level camera sells for the same price? Or that Nikon and Canon have been in lockstep for camera pricing for the past seven decades? That's quite a coincidence!

Building camera bodies out of aluminum billet is expensive too, as is writing UIs that make sense to humans (I assume, or else everyone would do it!). Are sensors with better pixel-level detail more expensive? It's definitely more expensive to have better colour science.

Stacked sensors don't make any difference to the final image, other than allowing faster readout speeds. Some people will pay for that (sports photographers), but what difference does it make to everybody else? It's like when 1/4000 titanium shutters came-out. Some people had to have them, even though the use case was extremely small compared to the 1/2000 shutters available in most professional SLRs.

In the end, camera companies need to make decisions about which features to include, and consumers then decide about which features they want. If the layout of a microchip is a primary concern, you'll favour that over other features. That's totally fine. I've rejected cameras over the layout of the shutter button, so why not demand that your sensors be stacked?

[jaapv]

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52 minutes ago, helged said:

And for Germany about 4000EURO: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1407317/average-monthly-wage-full-time-employees-gender-germany/#:~:text=Average monthly wage of full,in Germany 2021%2C by gender&text=In 2021%2C the average monthly,monthly salary at 4%2C275 euros.

Correct. And even with wages like that, Leica finds it very hard, if not impossible, to staff their Customer Service fully - a complaint felt in all sectors in Germany, or more accurately, North Western Europe.

[SJH]

20 hours ago, LBJ2 said:

I think what you hear/heard aligns more with the actual rumor posted "under €8K" Under gives a lot of room to be correct when all is said and done. 

Personally from what I understand it will be rather like the comparison between the Q2 v Q3 pricing at launch so roundish numbers in the UK = SL2 a £5,920 SL3 at £6,100 or $7,700.

I think for people in the UK (£) and EU then a price of around £6,100 wouldn't really raise any eyebrows and would seem about right and funny enough the same as the list price for the Sony A9III here.

[Jeff S]

7 hours ago, LeicaR10 said:

I see my comments created interesting thoughts to ponder.  I have been a Leica, Canon and Nikon user for 48+ years at different times and used products that served my genre of photography quite well.  My resulting photographs were always best created with Leica products and always very well received by my clients who voted with their wallets.  At the end of the day, not every camera manufacturer produces the perfect camera or lens.  I always believed and taught my many students, it was never about the brand, make, model type, features that create the photograph to capture the vision one sees. It always gets down to aperture, shutter speed, ISO...and mastering light, composition and creative vision.  I always told my students and assistants, to master the camera and lens at hand...not to worry about the gear, next model etc., just get out there and shoot, shoot, shoot and in time, one will start to undertand the strengths and weaknesses of the gear.  As for Leica, I am always amused at those who grouse at prices, yet they would not complain or whinge at the price of a new Porsche.  One does not go into a Porsche dealer to grind them down on price.  It is what it is and if you can't afford the Porsche, there is a Volkswagon waiting for you.  Leica has very high labor costs in Germany...fact of life.  If in Asia, labor cost are very cheap...IMO, almost slave labor cheap.  To those who want less expensive cameras and lenses, they are there....indulge yourself.  If you want Leica...well one needs to open the wallet and use the black AMEX card and go enjoy creating photographs.  The good news, we have choices.  Last, if the SL3 will help you create the masterpiece photographs that your Leica SL2 or SL2-S, etc., cannot do, then maybe you really do need a SL3 to help you reach your photographic zenith...so just pay off the black AMEX card and get ready to use it come March.  Just my opinions.   r/ Mark 

So you taught that brand doesn’t matter to achieve one’s vision; except Leica is needed for you. For those who don’t want less expensive Leica gear, I guess they can always open their wallets and use their black card for Phase One gear. 
 

Back on topic, only on a Leica forum can a fuzzy rumor generate so much heated debate. We should start a thread for the best bag for this more expensive SL3, which Oberwerth and the like are surely contemplating.

Jeff

[Richardgb]

6 hours ago, tomasis7 said:

Well, they rarely do. Their thinking is as cluttered as the JapCamera layout. 😂

'Cluttered' suggests you can't find what you need or are confused by what you do find. Can you give an instance of a 'cluttered JapCamera layout', or are you just talking about your personal preference. If you read / watch camera reviews, those with hands-on the new camera usually spend some time on the convenience or otherwise of the layout of the controls; yes, some seem to suit one reviewer more than another, but it's usually down to their own likes / dislikes.

[frankchn]

8 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

Don’t know about Sony, but Canon’s service is top notch and fast. 

Yeah, for pro support, nothing beats CPS/NPS/SPS. I have CPS Platinum for my Canon gear, and Canon promises 2 day turnaround on any repair or maintenance on my Canon cameras and lenses, or a loaner overnighted to you at no additional cost.

If you are a wedding pro sending your 24-70 or 70-200 in for repair on Monday after dropping it on Sunday, you can count on the fact that you'll either have your lens fixed or a loaner in time for your next wedding that weekend.

Meanwhile I just got my APO-M 75mm f/2 back from a CLA at Leica USA, and that took a month, and from my experience, that is pretty fast for Leica.

Edited February 6, 2024 by frankchn

[tomasis7]

vor 17 Stunden schrieb Richardgb:

'Cluttered' suggests you can't find what you need or are confused by what you do find. Can you give an instance of a 'cluttered JapCamera layout', or are you just talking about your personal preference. If you read / watch camera reviews, those with hands-on the new camera usually spend some time on the convenience or otherwise of the layout of the controls; yes, some seem to suit one reviewer more than another, but it's usually down to their own likes / dislikes.

 It means too many features. Constantly wanting something new. Endlessly complaining. 

If you watch reviewers who switched from Japanese cameras to Leica, they often say they could focus on taking photos and feel more relaxed. Set the aperture and shutter then click!

Btw it was a joke for the previous post. 🤣

[Richardgb]

21 minutes ago, tomasis7 said:

 It means too many features. Constantly wanting something new. Endlessly complaining. 

If you watch reviewers who switched from Japs to Leica, they often say they could focus on taking photos and feel more relaxed. Set the aperture and shutter then click!

Btw it was a joke for the previous post. 🤣

Tell me the features that a Canon / Nikon / Sony has that an SL2, for example, doesn't. The difference is often that on the Leica, the feature is found through a menu in contrast to the dedicated (or programmable) buttons found on the Japanese cameras.

As for 'constantly wanting something new' and 'endlessly complaining' you rarely hear those who get to know their cameras throroughly and / or using them to earn money doing so. And camera manufacturers would provide a feature unless there was a demand, i.e. they listen to user feedback (which is not a contradiction of my previous point).

By coincidence, there's an interesting article on DP Review today about whether manufacturers are obliged to provide updates. I suggest that those who 'constantly complain' didn't do their homework before buying, or didn't understand what they were buying, or their own limitations meant that they couldn't work out how they could / might / should control the camera to get the image they (think they) want. For them, the erstwhile point-and-shoot camera, or nowadays their phone camera, was probably sufficient in most cases but they fell into the age-old trap of thinking that buying a 'real camera' would automatically improve their photography. (A trap, incidentally, which doesn't just apply to camera buying).

 

 

[tomasis7]

4 minutes ago, Richardgb said:

Tell me the features that a Canon / Nikon / Sony has that an SL2, for example, doesn't. The difference is often that on the Leica, the feature is found through a menu in contrast to the dedicated (or programmable) buttons found on the Japanese cameras.

As for 'constantly wanting something new' and 'endlessly complaining' you rarely hear those who get to know their cameras throroughly and / or using them to earn money doing so. And camera manufacturers would provide a feature unless there was a demand, i.e. they listen to user feedback (which is not a contradiction of my previous point).

By coincidence, there's an interesting article on DP Review today about whether manufacturers are obliged to provide updates. I suggest that those who 'constantly complain' didn't do their homework before buying, or didn't understand what they were buying, or their own limitations meant that they couldn't work out how they could / might / should control the camera to get the image they (think they) want. For them, the erstwhile point-and-shoot camera, or nowadays their phone camera, was probably sufficient in most cases but they fell into the age-old trap of thinking that buying a 'real camera' would automatically improve their photography. (A trap, incidentally, which doesn't just apply to camera buying).

 

 

If you look closely at how Leica cameras are designed whether M, SL, Q, CL, S whatever, it is a very minimalistic layout. It is what I was looking for. If you compare with cars, I want ONLY rear-driven wheels, manual transmission, and N/A engine. I have such a car already. 

As a photographer, I need ONLY the aperture, shutter, click button, focus tab. Four things to take a photo. That comes from my background as a Film M body user. 

How do I use SL? I ditch AF and use M lenses. I use SL as M body and it works very well. I could focus on taking photos by using the four things (see above).

Of course, I want a simple camera. What else?

 

[algrove]

Read the entire thread. Come on so who KNOWS the SL3 price for sure is not talking due to NDA.

[tom0511]

to be honest, it wouldn't hurt if the SL3 price was not higher than a R3 or Z9.

 

[Planetwide]

2 hours ago, Richardgb said:

Tell me the features that a Canon / Nikon / Sony has that an SL2, for example, doesn't. The difference is often that on the Leica, the feature is found through a menu in contrast to the dedicated (or programmable) buttons found on the Japanese cameras.

As for 'constantly wanting something new' and 'endlessly complaining' you rarely hear those who get to know their cameras throroughly and / or using them to earn money doing so. And camera manufacturers would provide a feature unless there was a demand, i.e. they listen to user feedback (which is not a contradiction of my previous point).

By coincidence, there's an interesting article on DP Review today about whether manufacturers are obliged to provide updates. I suggest that those who 'constantly complain' didn't do their homework before buying, or didn't understand what they were buying, or their own limitations meant that they couldn't work out how they could / might / should control the camera to get the image they (think they) want. For them, the erstwhile point-and-shoot camera, or nowadays their phone camera, was probably sufficient in most cases but they fell into the age-old trap of thinking that buying a 'real camera' would automatically improve their photography. (A trap, incidentally, which doesn't just apply to camera buying).

 

 

Since you asked

Canon R5 Key Specs

• Announcement Date: 2020-07-09 
• 45MP - Full frame CMOS Sensor
• ISO 100 - 51200 ( expands to 50 - 102400)
• Canon RF Mount
• Sensor-shift Image Stabilization
• 3.20" Fully Articulated Screen
• 5760k dot Electronic viewfinder 
• 12.0fps (20.0fps Electronic) continuous shooting 
• 8K - 8192 x 4320 video resolution
• 120fps High-Speed Video
• Built-in Wireless
• 738g. 138 x 98 x 88 mm
• Weather-sealed Body

Leica SL2 Key Specs

• Announcement Date: 2019-11-06 
• 47MP - Full frame CMOS Sensor
• No Anti-aliasing (AA) filter
• ISO 100 - 50000 ( expands to 50 - 50000)
• Leica L Mount
• Sensor-shift Image Stabilization
• 3.20" Fixed Type Screen
• 5760k dot Electronic viewfinder 
• 20.0fps continuous shooting 
• 4K (DCI) - 3840 x 2160 video resolution
• Built-in Wireless
• 835g. 146 x 107 x 42 mm
• Weather-sealed Body
• Replaced Leica SL Compare 

Reasons to choose Canon EOS R5 over Leica SL2

Anti-dust Shutter Mechanism	YesvsNo	Shutter is closed to protect the sensor
LCD Screen	Fully ArticulatedvsFixed Type	Flexible shooting positions
Max ISO	51.200vs50.000	2% higher Max ISO
Number of Focus Points	5940vs225	5715 more focus points
Weight	738 gvs835 g	97 g lighter
Max Video Resolution	8192 x 4320vs3840 x 2160	Higher Resolution Video
AE Bracketing Range	±5 EVvs±3 EV	Wide Bracketing range is useful for HDR
Selfie & Vlogger LCD	YesvsNo	Rotate LCD for taking Selfies
Focus Bracketing	YesvsNo	Take multiple photos shifting focus point
IS Stop Effectivity	Up to 8.0-stopvsUp to 5.5-stop	2.5 stop more Effective Stabilization
CFexpress Card Support	Yes (Type B) vsnone	Read/Write in Ultra High Speeds
Animal Eye AF Tracking	YesvsNo	Easily lock and track focus on animals
Vehicle Tracking AF	YesvsNo	Easily lock and track racing cars and bikes
Webcam Function	YesvsNo	Use your camera as a Webcam
Anti Flicker	YesvsNo	Reduced uneven color and exposure under flickering light
Eye Tracking Focus	YesvsNo	Autofocus system locks on the eye and tracks the subject

 

Reasons to choose Leica SL2 over Canon EOS R5

Viewfinder Magnif.	0.78xvs0.76x	Larger Viewfinder
Sensor Resolution	47 MPvs45 MP	4% more pixels
Max Elect. Shutter	1/40000svs1/8000s	faster electronic shutter
Battery Life	370 shotsvs320 shots	50 more frames with a single charge
Flash Sync Port	YesvsNo	Connect off-camera flash
Full-size HDMI Port	YesvsNo	Use standard HDMI cables without adapters

 

[JohnSantaF4]

I'm just wondering what everyone thinks would be a reasonable SL3 price, given incremental improvements, inflation, and economies of scale in manufacturing, etc.

[SrMi]

3 hours ago, Planetwide said:

Since you asked

Canon R5 Key Specs

• Announcement Date: 2020-07-09 
• 45MP - Full frame CMOS Sensor
• ISO 100 - 51200 ( expands to 50 - 102400)
• Canon RF Mount
• Sensor-shift Image Stabilization
• 3.20" Fully Articulated Screen
• 5760k dot Electronic viewfinder 
• 12.0fps (20.0fps Electronic) continuous shooting 
• 8K - 8192 x 4320 video resolution
• 120fps High-Speed Video
• Built-in Wireless
• 738g. 138 x 98 x 88 mm
• Weather-sealed Body

Leica SL2 Key Specs

• Announcement Date: 2019-11-06 
• 47MP - Full frame CMOS Sensor
• No Anti-aliasing (AA) filter
• ISO 100 - 50000 ( expands to 50 - 50000)
• Leica L Mount
• Sensor-shift Image Stabilization
• 3.20" Fixed Type Screen
• 5760k dot Electronic viewfinder 
• 20.0fps continuous shooting 
• 4K (DCI) - 3840 x 2160 video resolution
• Built-in Wireless
• 835g. 146 x 107 x 42 mm
• Weather-sealed Body
• Replaced Leica SL Compare 

Reasons to choose Canon EOS R5 over Leica SL2

Anti-dust Shutter Mechanism	YesvsNo	Shutter is closed to protect the sensor
LCD Screen	Fully ArticulatedvsFixed Type	Flexible shooting positions
Max ISO	51.200vs50.000	2% higher Max ISO
Number of Focus Points	5940vs225	5715 more focus points
Weight	738 gvs835 g	97 g lighter
Max Video Resolution	8192 x 4320vs3840 x 2160	Higher Resolution Video
AE Bracketing Range	±5 EVvs±3 EV	Wide Bracketing range is useful for HDR
Selfie & Vlogger LCD	YesvsNo	Rotate LCD for taking Selfies
Focus Bracketing	YesvsNo	Take multiple photos shifting focus point
IS Stop Effectivity	Up to 8.0-stopvsUp to 5.5-stop	2.5 stop more Effective Stabilization
CFexpress Card Support	Yes (Type  vsnone	Read/Write in Ultra High Speeds
Animal Eye AF Tracking	YesvsNo	Easily lock and track focus on animals
Vehicle Tracking AF	YesvsNo	Easily lock and track racing cars and bikes
Webcam Function	YesvsNo	Use your camera as a Webcam
Anti Flicker	YesvsNo	Reduced uneven color and exposure under flickering light
Eye Tracking Focus	YesvsNo	Autofocus system locks on the eye and tracks the subject

 

 

Reasons to choose Leica SL2 over Canon EOS R5

Viewfinder Magnif.	0.78xvs0.76x	Larger Viewfinder
Sensor Resolution	47 MPvs45 MP	4% more pixels
Max Elect. Shutter	1/40000svs1/8000s	faster electronic shutter
Battery Life	370 shotsvs320 shots	50 more frames with a single charge
Flash Sync Port	YesvsNo	Connect off-camera flash
Full-size HDMI Port	YesvsNo	Use standard HDMI cables without adapters

 

You have skipped a lot of reasons to have SL2. 

 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[Planetwide]

6 hours ago, SrMi said:

You have skipped a lot of reasons to have SL2. 

 

I didn't skip anything in the reference that I used. But, just in case, here's the one that I used: https://cameradecision.com/compare/Leica-SL2-vs-Canon-EOS-R5

I do own the SL2 and I agree there are other reasons to own the camera. But my point was that, other camera's do bring a lot more options to the table. Whether, this is relevant to an individual is something only that individual can decide. Many on this board prefer the minimalist nature of Leica's, personally, I don't. I even missed the 4 programmable rear buttons on the original SL, and I wish that they would bring them back

While it's easy to ignore, or not use features in a camera, it's very limiting if you want them and they are just not available.  Again, and I stress, this is personal preference. However, I am at the point where several items will make or break it for me. Items such as a flip up screen, decent AF, better high ISO performance, better focus tools when using MF lenses are a few. We will see what the SL3 brings, along with its price point...